Are GURPS Tech Books released in wrong order / badly planned?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Personally, I find basic spaceship combat quite OK, but tactical combat has some gigantic, and fairly fundamental, problems (the biggest one being that 2D tactical space combat -- especially with missiles or more than two ships -- is fundamentally a broken idea [it makes about as much sense as having a 1D "tactical" combat system for ground combat], and the relationship of turn ability to time scale is broken pretty badly.)

Basic Space Combat is actually worse, as ships and missiles move at speeds not attainable given their accelerations, delta-V's, and turn durations. 2D combat is just an abstraction, like chess. I suppose one could make a 3D conversion, but then few people without some sort of 3D maptool would play it, and few with one would either. Speaking of which, I think by now my Unity-fu is strong enough that I could make such a 3D tool if given enough incentive. But answer to me honestly: would you really want to play such a thing?

[Novembermike]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Basic Space Combat is actually worse, as ships and missiles move at speeds not attainable given their accelerations, delta-V's, and turn durations. 2D combat is just an abstraction, like chess. I suppose one could make a 3D conversion, but then few people without some sort of 3D maptool would play it, and few with one would either. Speaking of which, I think by now my Unity-fu is strong enough that I could make such a 3D tool if given enough incentive. But answer to me honestly: would you really want to play such a thing?

The problem with any 3D program is that the interface is generally 2D. Even most FPS are only 3D in a limited sense.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Novembermike

The problem with any 3D program is that the interface is generally 2D. Even most FPS are only 3D in a limited sense.

...well, it's generally projected onto the 2d plane of the display, yes, and operated with 0-2 dimensional input devices. It's possible to work reasonably well within those constraints.

These days if one really wants it is possible to get a 3d monitor (via 120 hz screen and shutter-glasses, for instance). Dunno about 3d input devices.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Novembermike

The problem with any 3D program is that the interface is generally 2D. Even most FPS are only 3D in a limited sense.

Actually, writing a rotating or even roaming camera that will help visualize the ships in 3D is trivial - been there, done that. Explaining a point in space to the 3D-aid will be somewhat trickier, but if we look at SS rules strictly, you shouldn't be doing that in the first place: the ship captain designates bearing (a rotation, which, strictly speaking, can be expressed as two axes, with the third optional), and the desired dV (a linear value). Making the software calculate (instead of the player) such things as an intercept course with another given object is only slightly more complex (strictly speaking, not harder - just more operations). Really, this is certainly better 3D-visualization than, say, WWI pilots had. :)

[Jeffr0]

(Have you guys played Attack Vector and/or Squadron Strike and/or Saganami Island Tactical Simulator? If you want 3D... *and* playable... *and* interesting tactical options... this is probably the way to go.)

[NocTempre]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...well, it's generally projected onto the 2d plane of the display, yes, and operated with 0-2 dimensional input devices. It's possible to work reasonably well within those constraints.

These days if one really wants it is possible to get a 3d monitor (via 120 hz screen and shutter-glasses, for instance). Dunno about 3d input devices.

3D input = joystick. I happen to have the a SpaceNavigator (the most basic version of 3dconnexion line) which gives me a solid 9 axis of control with a normal mouse very intuitively. I use it for CAD. While it would work for games, most people (including myself, unfortunately) do not have strong enough three dimension capacity to enjoy such a thing as a hobby. Like the people that can solve n-dimensional rubik's cubes blow my mind.

Granted, this is a self fulfilling loop, and I'd love to support and would use such a 3d maptool, but the market is slim to none right now.

[Xplo]

Boy, this thread started wandering off topic. Computer aids for 3d ship combat? Heh...

Most of what I would say in this thread has already been said. I might have offered that the tech books were products of their time and development order, and people much more in the loop than me have already confirmed this.

It would be nice to see some kind of grand reconciliation between LT, HT, BT, and UT, where all the systems for statting types and qualities of clothing and armor, or weapon mods, drugs, whatever, were unified - or, if there's some physical reason why those systems should NOT be uniform across TLs, explained. And while we're at it, I'd like to see design systems for weapons, armor, power, computers, and the like, showing the underlying formulas, assumptions, and switches (e.g. between "realistic hard sci-fi lasers" and "space opera lasers"). And while we're at that, I'd like a pony.

Wait, I'm a grownup. I could probably buy a pony, if I really wanted one. Fine - make it a dire uplifted cyberdinosaur. That's safely out of reach.

[Anthony]

Typically, the problem with space combat (2d or 3d) is that either you spend a lot of time fighting with the interface (acceleration, 3d movement, etc, etc), or you fix that (for example, by computerization) and it winds up about as interesting as watching paint dry.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Typically, the problem with space combat (2d or 3d) is that either you spend a lot of time fighting with the interface (acceleration, 3d movement, etc, etc), or you fix that (for example, by computerization) and it winds up about as interesting as watching paint dry.

Been there, done that. One of the annoying examples from the recent playtest discussion/explanation:

'This arrow shows the recommended direction of acceleration/thrust you should maintain in order to dock with the destination starbase.'
'Ah, so it points to the starbase.'
'No, it points the direction where you should thrust.'
'So it points to the destination starbase?'
'No, it points to where your ship should be facing and accelerating towards.'
'So where else could it point? To the starbase?'

At least I'm trying to do my part to help children un-learn Aristotelian Mechanics.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Interesting idea.
Sort of like a PowerUps or Thaumatology book. Or Psi tech and Biotech is a more wide focus along the same concept.
GURPS UT Companion ContraGrav! with not only gear and such for societies that have it but notes on the effect it can have on Society if it is commonplace.

I could think of a lot of options and ideas along this line.
Cloning (covers autoduel and Roger Zealazny "Gods of Light and Darkness" for example). Some gear but also a lot on what society might look like.
Holoprojectors and Matter Transmutation might have been a good one for Hollywood to have read......
Reactionless drives, Teleporters, go over various ways they might work and some of the ramifications of each.

Many of these could even be smaller PDFs few would merit the size of PsiTech or Biotech.

(Thread necromancy, of a sort)


I am quite keen on the idea of a series of Ultra-Tech Companion books. I think I've mentioned that elsewhere.

I started writing what was to be a Pyramid article for the Future Exploration article many moons ago, but it was headed for "too long for a magazine article" territory. It included setting design switches like "If contragrav exists, here's how that affects societies and tech. If it only works for big vehicles, then X; if it only works for small vehicles, then Y." And the same for reactionless thrusters and FTL. Plus notes for gritty hard science and space opera (and everything in between) and how the Tech Paths affects settings.

I'm also quite interested in writing the UTC Cyberware book, and considering the positive feedback on the Pyramid 51 Tech and Toys 3, I should talk to whomever to see about actually making that happen.