Undead vs. Dead Broke

[RadagastTheBrown]

I hope I've named the right cards, I don't have the game with me and can't quite remember.

Undead: "Does some random stuff to monster" + "when monster dies, collect 2 extra treasures"

Dead Broke: "The monster you just killed has no treasures"

I played undead to make something strong so I would get more treasure from it. Someone played dead broke on the thing. I claimed that the monster never "had" the extra 2 treasures. Undead specifically says, "If he dies, collect 2 treasures", not "This monster now has 2 more treasures." So once he's dead, I understand I wouldn't get his normal treasure due to Dead Broke, but that shouldn't have any bearing on the 2 extra treasures, correct?
That's the conclusion I came to, because its what the text written actually MEANS, but I was playing with friends of mine who aren't as versed in card games, and they just wouldn't listen. I got pretty ****** off ><

Someone want to help me out here?

[MunchkinMan]

Your friends were right. First of all, Undead says "draw two extra Treasures." Those are in addition to the ones it already gets by the definition of "extra." Second, Dead Broke says the Monster has no treasure at all. That really does mean no Treasure, so the extra Treasures from Undead are also wiped away by Dead Broke.

[LoPan12]

Would it make a difference if the cards were played in the opposite order?
It's late (night-shift) and my brain is fuzzy.

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by LoPan12

Would it make a difference if the cards were played in the opposite order?
It's late (night-shift) and my brain is fuzzy.

No. Dead Broke says the Monster has no Treasure. Maybe if it said that the Monster's Treasure was now set to 0 in some way that you could still add more, I could see a way around it. The intent of Dead Broke is to make that particular Monster Treasureless, regardless of what happens to it prior to or after Dead Broke was played. If you can cancel Dead Broke somehow (e.g., Annihilation), then the Monster would be flush again.

[RadagastTheBrown]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

Your friends were right. First of all, Undead says "draw two extra Treasures." Those are in addition to the ones it already gets by the definition of "extra." Second, Dead Broke says the Monster has no treasure at all. That really does mean no Treasure, so the extra Treasures from Undead are also wiped away by Dead Broke.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing here, I just wanted to say if you follow the text of the cards to their logical conclusion (a.k.a what the text actually, specifically says. Not what its intended to mean), undead says, If the monster died, draw two extra Treasures. It doesn't say the monsters holding those treasures, and dead broke doesn't say anything that would specificially void getting treasures for any reason besides taking them off a monster's corpse.
If the monster died, draw two extra Treasures.
The monster died, therefore I draw two extra treasures. -> The base treasure amount is 0 (because of dead broke), therefore I get 0 + 2 -> I draw two treasures.

If this were MTG, I would win this debate. But its Munchkin, the game that seems intent on making MTG players go crazy -- which is fine! It's good at doing just that, and its really funny when it happens to my friends, but frustrating when I'm the victim ><

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by RadagastTheBrown

I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing here,

Answers from MunchkinMan are official unless he says they're just his opinion. Dead Broke means you get ZERO Treasures, regardless of any other cards in the combat.

[MunchkinMan]

Before we lay this discussion to its final resting place, I want to make sure I was being absolutely clear on my reasoning: Dead Broke explicitly states a final and absolute statement about what Treasures the Monster is carrying ("This monster has no treasure at all."); it does not say that the base number of Treasures on the Monster card is changed. The order doesn't matter, again because the card doesn't give any indication that this is a "wipe the slate clean and start over" effect, but an absolute final effect on the Monster, not the Monster card.

[whassumattuh]

This evening my friend was fighting two monsters, one a Level 1 monster and the other a Level 15 monster. He quickly played an Enhancer on the Level 15 monster and before I could play Dead Broke he played Polymorph Potion.

If the combat is still going, can I play Dead Broke on the monster that has been Charmed/Polymorph Potioned/Dead/etc.? Thanks!

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by whassumattuh

If the combat is still going, can I play Dead Broke on the monster that has been Charmed/Polymorph Potioned/Dead/etc.? Thanks!

You cannot play a card that must be played on a monster if the monster you want to play it on has been removed (by Charm, Magic Lamp, Pollymorph Potion, or other means).