RPM[MH]- RPM, charms, and weapons

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

No blowthrough in 4e

damage must be greater than DRx2 + HP of target to blow through to the other side. I forgot which book it is in but it is there. me thinks it was LT or MA since it was accomponied by an example of a man hacking at another man who is call lucy. lucy had DR2 on the arms and HP 10. the Man hit lucy's arm for 22 (or something) so the right arm took 22-2 = 20x1.5 for 30 cutting injury dropped to 6 for being on the arm, but the arm is hacked off! the swing continues to the next arm (the man rolled for the second hit) and hits. the damage would be 22-2-6-2 = 12 to the left arm which takes 12-2 = 10x1.5 for 15 cutting damage. bye bye second arm!


or something like that.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

damage must be greater than DRx2 + HP of target to blow through to the other side. I forgot which book it is in but it is there. me thinks it was LT or MA since it was accomponied by an example of a man hacking at another man who is call lucy. lucy had DR2 on the arms and HP 10. the Man hit lucy's arm for 22 (or something) so the right arm took 22-2 = 20x1.5 for 30 cutting injury dropped to 6 for being on the arm, but the arm is hacked off! the swing continues to the next arm (the man rolled for the second hit) and hits. the damage would be 22-2-6-2 = 12 to the left arm which takes 12-2 = 10x1.5 for 15 cutting damage. bye bye second arm!


or something like that.

But it does not limit damage to a person, just limits how effective human shields are.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

But it does not limit damage to a person, just limits how effective human shields are.

how much DR and HP do you think a car door has?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

But it does not limit damage to a person, just limits how effective human shields are.

Bullet blowthrough is an optional 4e rule in High Tech (pg 162), meant to be combined with the Bleeding rules. But this is getting off-topic...

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Bullet blowthrough is an optional 4e rule in High Tech (pg 162), meant to be combined with the Bleeding rules. But this is getting off-topic...

And the rule he is citing is in basic and is about shooting through cover. See Overpenetration on B408. At standard there is no blowthrough.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Well, I figured the 'bullet of 67d' was a lesser effect since Tactical Shooting says people expect bullets to be instant death / knockdown, even trained soldiers can think so. Thus, seeing a bullet atomize someone in a single blow should be coincidental

When the coroner does the autopsy and pulls a 9mm HP round out of a wound that looks like it was done by an autocannon, he's going to notice.

[Anaraxes]

Does the choice of greater/lesser effect then depend on the observer(s) only? In front of some credulous observers, you get away with more?

Were we playing Mage: The Ascension, I'd say yes, because in that setting, reality _is_ entirely subjective, and the mundanes don't have any clue about how it works anyway.

But we're talking about GURPS MH. While fantastic and cinematic, it's still more grounded in the real world than Mage. I'd be happier with a constant set of guidelines either as player or GM.

This intersects the point in another thread about whether it's the _change_ that's "too much", or just the final result. If humans up to ST 20 are believable, is +2 ST for a ST 10 target Lesser while on a ST 20 target, it's Greater, because the ST 22 result isn't believable? Or is "+2 ST" simply Lesser no matter what, because it's not a huge change?

[Lamech]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Does the choice of greater/lesser effect then depend on the observer(s) only? In front of some credulous observers, you get away with more?

Were we playing Mage: The Ascension, I'd say yes, because in that setting, reality _is_ entirely subjective, and the mundanes don't have any clue about how it works anyway.

But we're talking about GURPS MH. While fantastic and cinematic, it's still more grounded in the real world than Mage. I'd be happier with a constant set of guidelines either as player or GM.

This intersects the point in another thread about whether it's the _change_ that's "too much", or just the final result. If humans up to ST 20 are believable, is +2 ST for a ST 10 target Lesser while on a ST 20 target, it's Greater, because the ST 22 result isn't believable? Or is "+2 ST" simply Lesser no matter what, because it's not a huge change?

The classic example IIRC is a lighting bolt from a stormy sky is legal but one from your hand is not, and if a normalish bystanders would notice. I'm sure a careful scientific analysis would show that the lighting bolt from the stormy sky wasn't right. But a person standing nearby wouldn't now. The 65d bullet example would be painfully obvious because it could punch through a huge chunk of steel when most rounds are bouncing right off.
Also IMO a ST10 person tossing stuff around like a ST 20 person would be silly, but a ST 20 person tossing stuff around like a ST 21 would be normal.

[Novembermike]

IMO it's not dependent on the observer, it's just a measure of how badly you're messing with reality. A lesser effect for a bullet might have less energy escaping as recoil, less air resistance in flight and maybe it tumbles perfectly once it hits. You are messing with physics but it's more bending than breaking the rules. Having a pistol that shoots a round that can go through heavy body armor while killing the person inside instantly requires a lot more energy and you have to actually break the rules, making it a greater effect.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Novembermike

IMO it's not dependent on the observer, it's just a measure of how badly you're messing with reality. A lesser effect for a bullet might have less energy escaping as recoil, less air resistance in flight and maybe it tumbles perfectly once it hits. You are messing with physics but it's more bending than breaking the rules. Having a pistol that shoots a round that can go through heavy body armor while killing the person inside instantly requires a lot more energy and you have to actually break the rules, making it a greater effect.

Admittedly this was a situation of an 'off the cuff' call rather then 'we sat down and decided that shooting 65d rounds was 100% lesser effect', but it still makes for interesting discussion to continue using those numbers, since they are what happened.

It does not require a lot of 'less energy loss' 'less air resistance' 'less round deformation' and 'perfect tumble' to turn a .45 into an effective .50 hand packed hot loaded DU, and not much more from there to get to a .600 nitro hand packed hot loaded DU (and so on and so forth)- Admittedly this still is not 65d, but it's getting pretty close to 32+2(2)d which for most human targets is essentially identical- further if you START with something like a .45+p DU round the total energy loss you have to prevent/energy you need to add is much less.


Side note: Is there an accepted RPM method for adding an armour divisor to missile type attacks?