One-handed or Two-handed sword, that is the question

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Carlos

Despite the fact that the Zweihander is a fencing weapon, I don't think it suits a Swashbuckler because its a heavy weapon, which fits completely the DF's Knights with Two-Handed Sword skill in full plate. And this is a problem, as I said, because the Armor Familiarity perk is a exclusive Power-up to Swashbucklers.

and here we get to the core of the isse. what does the F under parry mean for the zweihander? Being fencing isn't usually the province of the weapon, but of the skill, as shown with some weapons being usable with both fencing and non-fencing skills, and having none of the weaknesses of fencing weapons when used with non-fencing skills.

I would say that the Zweihander is NOT a fencing weapon. It's a non-fencing weapon with a fencing parry. It doesn't get the bonus fencing weapons get to disarm, for example. However, it gets reduced parry penalties and improved retreating parries. It should not get the encumbrance related penalties to attack, and probably it should not get them to parry either.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

I would say that the Zweihander is NOT a fencing weapon. It's a non-fencing weapon with a fencing parry. It doesn't get the bonus fencing weapons get to disarm, for example. However, it gets reduced parry penalties and improved retreating parries. It should not get the encumbrance related penalties to attack, and probably it should not get them to parry either.

Why would you conclude that it isn't a fencing weapon, when it has the solitary necessary and sufficient characteristic of a fencing weapon, which is having an F parry? There's nothing else that marks a fencing weapon.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Why would you conclude that it isn't a fencing weapon, when it has the solitary necessary and sufficient characteristic of a fencing weapon, which is having an F parry? There's nothing else that marks a fencing weapon.

Usable with a fencing skill is a pretty important distinction...

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Why would you conclude that it isn't a fencing weapon, when it has the solitary necessary and sufficient characteristic of a fencing weapon, which is having an F parry? There's nothing else that marks a fencing weapon.

Take Low Tech or Martial Arts. Look at the edged rapier. It's available both under the Rapier skill and the Broadsword skill. This means that being fencing is a matter of the skill, not the weapon (though not all weapons can be used with fencing and non-fencing skills). Now look at Weapon adaptation, where it's stated that when moving a weapon to a fencing skill, it gets the benefits of the fencing skill (increased parry when retreating, decreased multiple parry penalties, etc etc). The penalties for encumbrance to fencing skills are listed with the skills, not with the weapons, at least not to attack. What's listed with the weapons is the fencing parry.

[Ultraviolet]

I think the real question is *why* the Zweihander gets the parry bonus otherwise restricted to fencing weapons.
Isn't it a huge blade? Why is it so maneouverable?

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

I think the real question is *why* the Zweihander gets the parry bonus otherwise restricted to fencing weapons.
Isn't it a huge blade? Why is it so maneouverable?

Because it's cool.

Seriously, this is from a section about super-badass ethnic weapons. It's not a real zweihander. It's a super-mythological zweihander that can cut horses in half while parrying as well as a rapier.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

I think the real question is *why* the Zweihander gets the parry bonus otherwise restricted to fencing weapons.
Isn't it a huge blade? Why is it so maneouverable?

As mentioned, this is the "sword up to 11!!ONE1!" sword - that's why it has a Reach of 3, and that's why it has an F parry instead of the two-handed sword parry - it's taking the actual 2-handed sword parry up a further notch.

The "mythology" around the zweihander tends to gush lovingly about the amount of parrying surface and mobility on the battlefield, and describes it as a viable weapon for offense and defense, despite denying the wielder the effective use of a shield. If you want an ethnic-badass-keen weapon that parries like two ninjas working together and features a mobile fighting style (and remember, this is from Fantasy Tech, which is about ethnic-badass-keen stuff, not realistic stuff), the way to crank that up in GURPS is to give it an F parry.

The other obvious option is to give it a flat bonus on parries, but that doesn't encourage the same sort of mobile fighting style (the fencing-parry bonuses on retreats). You could combine the two if you really want it to be extremely good on defense, or even call it a DB bonus instead of a specific Parry bonus. I'd reserve that for a magic weapon, or perhaps the shield-blades discussed with tongue somewhat in cheek upthread.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

The Mycenaean Lion Hunt Dagger shows full-height shields being used with two-handed spears and the guige is clearly visible on two of them.
http://www.artsales.com/images/mycen...er-mycenae.jpg

It looks bloody cumbersome!

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Carlos

Sure! However, in DF rules, Armor familiarity is a perk exclusive to Swashbucklers, according to DF 11.

Don't you sometimes wish you were playing GURPS?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Because it's cool.

Which should heavily inform any judgments about what it can and can't do in game, and for whom it works or doesn't work. Choose the cooler answer. You've already said coolness trumps other considerations by using this thing, so just keep driving down that road.