Dodging Difficulty

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Good to know no one ever attacks someone with a gun with a melee weapon in the real world. I'm sure every police officer that's ever been stabbed will be relieved to hear that.

More importantly, even if your assertion were true that such situations never arise, .

I did not make that assertion. To clarify, the disadvantages of being armed with a stick or any other melee weapon in a gunfight are so gigantic under the normal rules, that I don't much care if the miniscule chance of dodging a stick is even more miniscule when you are dodging a gun. Which would only be actually true at certain engagement ranges anyway. Of course technically with dodge and retreat, your chances of dodging a stick really are better under the rules.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I did not make that assertion. To clarify, the disadvantages of being armed with a stick or any other melee weapon in a gunfight are so gigantic under the normal rules, that I don't much care if the miniscule chance of dodging a stick is even more miniscule when you are dodging a gun. Which would only be actually true at certain engagement ranges anyway.

Since when is ~25% minuscule?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Of course technically with dodge and retreat, your chances of dodging a stick really are better under the rules.

This is true. Still leaves a gap between someone throwing a baseball at you v. shooting a laser at you, however.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Since when is ~25% minuscule?
.

A six or less comes up 25% of the time?

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

A six or less comes up 25% of the time?

BS = 5, Dodge = 8. Most people aren't tooling around with Medium encumbrance. Cops are probably at Light at the most. Soldiers might be at Medium if they're still carrying packs, but they tend to drop those once rounds start flying. Gangbangers/criminals are probably at none.

[mlangsdorf]

I've toyed around with givings guns 1 point of free Predictive Attack, and energy weapons 2 free points - essentially, a -1 or -2 to Dodge. It makes firearms and lasers harder to dodge than bows, but not so much harder than people can't dodge them entirely.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

BS = 5, Dodge = 8. Most people aren't tooling around with Medium encumbrance. Cops are probably at Light at the most. Soldiers might be at Medium if they're still carrying packs, but they tend to drop those once rounds start flying. Gangbangers/criminals are probably at none.

I do agree with Crakkerjakk here... Chance to dodge are not low. To the contrary, they are quite high.

Suppose that Average Joe is walking on the street - like almost everyone does it, that is without encumbrance. A bad guy walks in front of him, draws a knife and says "Give me all your money, bastard!" Joe refuses and the bad guys attacks. Joe's effective dodge is 8 + 3 (retreat), that is 11. 62.5% chance of avoiding the blow without the least training!

Now, suppose that this bad guys has a gun instead of a knife. If Joe dodges and drops, following the Basic Set rules, Joe's chance of avoiding the bullet are exactly the same... 62.5%.

Every one with common sense would say that it is far much easier to dodge a knife blow than a man who has just to pull the trigger of his gun... And this is, to my mind, what Benz 72 was meaning.

But, as Sir Pudding said it, there already are optional rules for those who want more realistic dodge. Limiting Dodge, in Martial Arts, pages 122-123, for instance. Or those in Tactical Shooting - which I didn't buy yet.

And remember that the GM may always give extra modifiers for specific situations. No matter how comprehensive a role playing system can be, it can't anticipate every contingency.

Hitting a foot is easier with a spear than with a knife, for instance. Likewise, dodging some blows is easier than dodging some others. So, the GM is free to add a task difficulty modifier if he fit that they are appropriate. See Basic Set pages 345-346.

Just don't forget to divide them by 2 for defense rolls.

[Mathulhu]

I have read it that Dodging represents anything an untrained person can do that will cause an attack to hit.

The bit that seems screwy to me is the extra's you can choose to add retreating and dropping. They both should be decision that you make on your turn rather than as a reaction.

Worked examples

DX 10 1point of skill in either knife or gun gives a 50% chance of hitting.

Does the attacker have a 50% chance of missing if the defender does nothing?
I don't think that fits so we need some tactics.

With the knife he telegraphs +4 to hit and +2 to dodge and uses an all out attack determined (it could be AoA strong for more damage).
Retreating makes sense here it's a perfect example of the "eek a pointy thing" response.

Result
Skill 18 and +2 to dodge or skill 14, +5 to dodge and +2 damage.

Now for the gun
A couple of seconds pointing the gun at the target probably counts as aiming.
Add an all out attack determined.
Would you really throw yourself to floor in front of a man threatening you with a gun instead of running away or attempting to fight back? I wouldn't.
So skill 13 to 15 and no bonus to dodge.

We could run the percentages but I am pretty sure the knife is less likely to connect.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Mathulhu

I have read it that Dodging represents anything an untrained person can do that will cause an attack to hit.

The bit that seems screwy to me is the extra's you can choose to add retreating and dropping. They both should be decision that you make on your turn rather than as a reaction.

Worked examples

DX 10 1point of skill in either knife or gun gives a 50% chance of hitting.

Does the attacker have a 50% chance of missing if the defender does nothing?
I don't think that fits so we need some tactics.

With the knife he telegraphs +4 to hit and +2 to dodge and uses an all out attack determined (it could be AoA strong for more damage).
Retreating makes sense here it's a perfect example of the "eek a pointy thing" response.

Result
Skill 18 and +2 to dodge or skill 14, +5 to dodge and +2 damage.

Now for the gun
A couple of seconds pointing the gun at the target probably counts as aiming.
Add an all out attack determined.
Would you really throw yourself to floor in front of a man threatening you with a gun instead of running away or attempting to fight back? I wouldn't.
So skill 13 to 15 and no bonus to dodge.

We could run the percentages but I am pretty sure the knife is less likely to connect.

If I don't make any mistake in my calculation...

The bad guy with the knife
Skill 18 (Average Joe's dodge 8 + 3 + 2 = 13): 15.89% chance to hit.

The bad guy with the gun
Skill 13 to 15 (Average Joe's dodge without dodge and drop): 62.09% to 70.69% to hit.

The bad guy with the gun, if Average Joe is dodging and dropping
Skill 13 to 15 (Average Joe's dodge without dodge and drop): 31.42% to 35.77% to hit.

Following GURPS rules, Average Joe wold better dodge and drop than try to run away... But, of course, the problem with dodging and dropping is that he would be prone just after... Which would reduce drastically his chance to survive a second shot.