What skills would a NAI-4 have in 2011?

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Computer Operation, yes. Math not so much because it is easy to put there (it's a Hard skill), but more because math is the basis of everything.

Math is easy to put there. We arguably already have dedicated AIs with Math skill - look at Mathematica or any of the other computer algebra systems out there. Math has a set of rules to it, and things with a set of rules (even if there are tons of them) are easy to program, even if normal people can't use them so well because the rule set is so large and humans are so terrible at using them.

While Accounting, Finance, Market Analysis and Merchant might seem a small niche, they aren't: Accountants are a very large portion of computer users, which is why tech support typically sees them as the primary clientelle. The latter three skills will be popular not because they have everyday applications, but because their applications influence every day of their lives. For instance, getting cheaper items of the same quality is always good, even if you only actually buy them once a month or year.

I've never heard that accountants are considered the primary clientele of tech support before - sounds rather dubious to me, seeing as non-accountants greatly outnumber accountants.

In any case, accountants are still not consumers. They're providers. They provide a service and, as such, software specific to them shouldn't be on every single AI out there. Also, while Merchant might be useful for most people, Finance, Market Analysis, etc are all more important for people who actually handle money - in other words, useful mainly for accountants and the people who hire accountants. There's no reason to put software in the AI that will eliminate half of an entire job group. Maybe some small amount of Accounting skill would be added to the NAI to help people with home finances ala TurboTax, but I don't think Finance or Market Analysis would be required.

As for limiting skills to IQ+2, that seems a bit low. IQ+C perhaps?

I don't see why IQ+2 is too low - that's generally the highest I see skills get on SJG-created character sheets for realistic games, and it seems unlikely that they'd be able to give the AI a higher relative skill level than the programmers have access to. Besides, IQ+2 sounds more than reasonable; it really prevents these silly 'my AI is more than professionally competent at everything even though he's a complete moron!' situations.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Langy

Math is easy to put there. We arguably already have dedicated AIs with Math skill - look at Mathematica or any of the other computer algebra systems out there. Math has a set of rules to it, and things with a set of rules (even if there are tons of them) are easy to program, even if normal people can't use them so well because the rule set is so large and humans are so terrible at using them.

I wouldn't say it's easy. I do agree that Lightning Calculator and Intuitive Mathematician are TL7- traits for 'AIs'. But tell me, how many breakthroughs in math have been performed by computers? How many theorem proofs have been written by computers? I keep reading that this or that person wrote such-and-such a solution to Einstein's equations. I never heard of a computer device doing on its own. Ease problems by brute-forcing them by superior calculation speed - yes. Actually doing stuff that falls outside that (like figuring out the axioms of planimetry) - that's different.

Originally Posted by Langy

I've never heard that accountants are considered the primary clientele of tech support before - sounds rather dubious to me, seeing as non-accountants greatly outnumber accountants.

Sure, but non-accountants don't need to handle programs of that level of technicality on a daily basis while having an administrative/financial education, not a technical one.

Sure, it's niche, but it's a niche large enough. It got to the point that '1C programmer' is a distinct job/specialization descriptor. Maybe it's different elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Langy

In any case, accountants are still not consumers. They're providers. They provide a service and, as such, software specific to them shouldn't be on every single AI out there. Also, while Merchant might be useful for most people, Finance, Market Analysis, etc are all more important for people who actually handle money - in other words, useful mainly for accountants and the people who hire accountants. There's no reason to put software in the AI that will eliminate half of an entire job group. Maybe some small amount of Accounting skill would be added to the NAI to help people with home finances ala TurboTax, but I don't think Finance or Market Analysis would be required.

While not required, they seem to be the desired skills pretty much. Anyway, Writing and Computer Operation (and Literacy!) are probably good things. Body Language can both help the AI understand the person, and help many people deal with other people.

Originally Posted by Langy

I don't see why IQ+2 is too low - that's generally the highest I see skills get on SJG-created character sheets for realistic games, and it seems unlikely that they'd be able to give the AI a higher relative skill level than the programmers have access to. Besides, IQ+2 sounds more than reasonable; it really prevents these silly 'my AI is more than professionally competent at everything even though he's a complete moron!' situations.

It's a good limit for settings like Star Wars and Mass Effect where most AIs are idiots in their own fields. But I think the possibility of at least moderat AI savants should be there. Not to the point of being better than typical 150-point heroes are in their fields, but at least enough to rival them if built on a moderately impressive budget.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I wouldn't say it's easy. I do agree that Lightning Calculator and Intuitive Mathematician are TL7- traits for 'AIs'. But tell me, how many breakthroughs in math have been performed by computers? How many theorem proofs have been written by computers? I keep reading that this or that person wrote such-and-such a solution to Einstein's equations. I never heard of a computer device doing on its own. Ease problems by brute-forcing them by superior calculation speed - yes. Actually doing stuff that falls outside that (like figuring out the axioms of planimetry) - that's different.

New Scientist article

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

New Scientist article

I'm not sure what to make of that (esp. since it's only the beginning of the article). One part of me wants to ironically note 'singularity is coming, and it is not the way we imagined it', while another wants to point out that this still seems to be a method that relies on brute-forcing the problem through the use of ATR, ETS, Intuitive Mathematician and Lightning Calculator (i.e. definitely not the same application of skill as was common among people with no access to large-scale or fast number-crunching, like Euclides & company).

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I wouldn't say it's easy. I do agree that Lightning Calculator and Intuitive Mathematician are TL7- traits for 'AIs'. But tell me, how many breakthroughs in math have been performed by computers? How many theorem proofs have been written by computers? I keep reading that this or that person wrote such-and-such a solution to Einstein's equations. I never heard of a computer device doing on its own. Ease problems by brute-forcing them by superior calculation speed - yes. Actually doing stuff that falls outside that (like figuring out the axioms of planimetry) - that's different.

I don't think a nonsapient AI would be able to do that kind of stuff no matter what level of Mathematics they have. This kind of thing requires creativity, and NAIs don't perform creative tasks. Their Mathematics skill should only be for modeling the kind of stuff TL8 software can currently do (solve mathematical equations, mostly), not write theorem proofs (except the really simple, non-novel, ones).

While not required, they seem to be the desired skills pretty much. Anyway, Writing and Computer Operation (and Literacy!) are probably good things. Body Language can both help the AI understand the person, and help many people deal with other people.

I don't think Body Language would be all that useful, because this is TL8. I don't think you'd interact with the AI through a webcam or anything - it'd be through a terminal interface or maybe a voice interface, but the voice interface would probably have a bunch of bugs, since speech recognition tech isn't all that great yet.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Langy

I don't think a nonsapient AI would be able to do that kind of stuff no matter what level of Mathematics they have. This kind of thing requires creativity, and NAIs don't perform creative tasks. Their Mathematics skill should only be for modeling the kind of stuff TL8 software can currently do (solve mathematical equations, mostly), not write theorem proofs (except the really simple, non-novel, ones).

Sure, it should suffer the standard penalty for Hidebound and stuff. It's the difference between a limited but still IQ8* program and an IQ0 piece of simple gear that grants a buffed-up Calculator (or external Intuitive Mathematician).

Originally Posted by Langy

I don't think Body Language would be all that useful, because this is TL8. I don't think you'd interact with the AI through a webcam or anything - it'd be through a terminal interface or maybe a voice interface, but the voice interface would probably have a bunch of bugs, since speech recognition tech isn't all that great yet.

With IQ8* why not?

* == if we mean NAI-4 as in Complexity 4.

[DuncanWatson]

Originally Posted by Langy

I don't think you'd interact with the AI through a webcam or anything - it'd be through a terminal interface or maybe a voice interface, but the voice interface would probably have a bunch of bugs, since speech recognition tech isn't all that great yet.

We already do this, what do you think X-Box connect is? Both voice and visual input for processing.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Sure, it should suffer the standard penalty for Hidebound and stuff. It's the difference between a limited but still IQ8* program and an IQ0 piece of simple gear that grants a buffed-up Calculator (or external Intuitive Mathematician).

Technically, I think calculators these days are IQ1+, in that they are able to take primitive actions independent of their operators, like powering down after inactivity, and most can be taught new functions or at least can store and retrieve information.

Originally Posted by DuncanWatson

We already do this, what do you think X-Box connect is? Both voice and visual input for processing.

The gestures employed aren't exactly suited for communicating story problems.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by DuncanWatson

We already do this, what do you think X-Box connect is? Both voice and visual input for processing.

Er, no. Totally not the same thing.