GURPS Dark Sun Conversion

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Really? We can't be civil anymore?

If you find that sentence offensive, why did you start using it?

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Which is more important? That things in GURPS exactly match the description of things in D&D,

I haven't been going for exactly matching the description of things in D&D, only the feel.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

or that people can play the same things in the conversion that they can in D&D?

They can play the same things in the conversion that they can in D&D, just not at any point total. The same is true with Jürgen's templates.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Are you making a Dark Sun conversion for just your preferred power level? Or for anyone who wants to play a Dark Sun game at a variety of power levels? I think the second is more useful.

I've already answered this question, I'm going for verisimilitude, for people who actually want to play in Dark sun rather than a generic DF knock off. The elf template I posted was about 1/3 the point total of the Thri-reen one.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

I've been thinking about this as well. One issue is that there are differing explanations between the two boxed sets when precisely you drain the energy from the plants - during the preparation of the spells, or during the casting.

Point of reference:

“In addition, the dragon can store magical energy in its body for use at a later time. This gives it the freedom to use its spells in even the most barren of wastes and the incentive to roam over wide expanses of desert in search of food.”
1st Ed Dark sun boxed set, The Wanderer’s Journal page 12.

So you might want to limit storing magical energy to high level defilers.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Personally, I think it would be neat if both options were possible, for defilers - this makes them more versatile and sneaky, and thus it's harder for preservers to show that they are different than those vile defiling bastards.

<snip>

How does this sound?

Why can the Preservers use defiler stuff? Shouldn't that be an alternate ability? Did preservers have to suck juice from their surroundings? I thought they powered all their spells with their own energy? Why can't defilers chose to suck energy slowly like Perservers, eliminating the nuisance effect of the reaction penalty.

I like the taint mechanic on Defiling magic.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Point of reference:

“In addition, the dragon can store magical energy in its body for use at a later time. This gives it the freedom to use its spells in even the most barren of wastes and the incentive to roam over wide expanses of desert in search of food.”
1st Ed Dark sun boxed set, The Wanderer’s Journal page 12.

So you might want to limit storing magical energy to high level defilers.

Well, the Dark Sun Revised boxed set says on p. 28 of "The Age of Heroes":

"There are two steps to casting a spell on Athas. First, a wizard must gather the energy to power the spell from the plant life around him. Then he performs the actions necessary for releasing the spell—the usual somatic, verbal, and material components of the spell come into play in the second step."
"This gathering of energy occurs outside of game time, during the same period of time as a wizard is memorizing his spells."

So the two works are inconsistent on this matter. I thought it would be interesting to split the distance and permit both. This also increases the overall paranoia level - are you sure that the guy in front of you is a preserver as he claims just because his spell didn't destroy the plants around him right now? Perhaps he just gathered the energy at an earlier point...

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

If you find that sentence offensive, why did you start using it?

I don't find the sentence offensive. I find people repeating things I said several times in a row slightly annoying. It's fairly classic schoolyard taunting.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I haven't been going for exactly matching the description of things in D&D, only the feel.

I think your conversion is sacrificing playability for the sake of accuracy to the original.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

They can play the same things in the conversion that they can in D&D, just not at any point total. The same is true with Jürgen's templates.

So to be clear, what are the point totals for games that you allow players to play Thri-Kreen in? Keeping in mind that their racial template alone costs more than being a Navy SEAL?

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I've already answered this question, I'm going for verisimilitude, for people who actually want to play in Dark sun rather than a generic DF knock off. The elf template I posted was about 1/3 the point total of the Thri-reen one.

I've done a fair amount of work converting Shadowrun. According to SR, there are all kinds of things mages can do. If you made it so that every mage in GURPS SR had the same abilities every mage in normal SR had, just buying the basic abilities of being a mage (not even factoring in IQ) would probably run around 150-200 points. More like 500 if we don't cheat by saying that some properties of astral projection are due to the astral plane obeying different laws. Yet we have SR games about street level gangers with mages in them. Classic examples of low-point characters.

Now, you can convert all of the abilities SR says mages have. Or you can select some key abilities that are the core essence of "mage" in SR and make all the rest optional. I personally think the stories that unfold in a typical game in that setting are what you want to emulate. To me, it's more important to allow people the same character choices at the same relative power levels than to faithfully model every trait from the original setting. I don't have a problem with letting them upgrade to the full-on version in a higher point game, but I usually make those purchasable abilities, optional lenses, etc.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Why can the Preservers use defiler stuff? Shouldn't that be an alternate ability? Did preservers have to suck juice from their surroundings? I thought they powered all their spells with their own energy? Why can't defilers chose to suck energy slowly like Perservers, eliminating the nuisance effect of the reaction penalty.

Canonically, all arcane magic on Athas (with the exception of that "sun magic" that Sadira from the novel uses) draws energy from plants. It's just that preservers do so very slowly and carefully, not taking more than they need and allowing the plants to recover quickly (possibly even using subtle magics or mundane means to boost the health of the plant in other ways to make up for it). They literally "preserve" the plants they drain the energy from.

As described, defiling has a lot of similarities with drug addiction - they get a "rush" as they drain the energy of plants. Preservers know how to defile - they know how to drain energy from plants, after all - but they have carefully trained themselves to restrain from sucking all the energy out of them. This requires a lot of focus and willpower - and once you are used to the rush of energy of defiling, it becomes harder and harder to maintain. Defilers possibly can become defilers again (there is even a sorcerer king who managed that), but this requires very long periods of being "cold turkey" before they regain the balance needed. They can't switch between defiling and preserving at will any more.

I allowed that option for preservers because I wanted to offer them temptation - but I didn't want to make it cost any additional points for them because I didn't want to punish preservers who remain "virtuous" by charging points for an option they will never use.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

So the two works are inconsistent on this matter. I thought it would be interesting to split the distance and permit both. This also increases the overall paranoia level - are you sure that the guy in front of you is a preserver as he claims just because his spell didn't destroy the plants around him right now? Perhaps he just gathered the energy at an earlier point...

I always preferred the explanation that the only difference (at low power levels) between preservers and defilers is how they chose to gather the energy to power spells. Any mage can chose to pull energy from the environment around him. It makes it a very slippery slope and the reactions of Rakad Q. Public to mages a bit more rational.

I do like your taint mechanic though. Kind of represents the crutch defilers develop always taking the easy way.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Canonically, all arcane magic on Athas (with the exception of that "sun magic" that Sadira from the novel uses) draws energy from plants. It's just that preservers do so very slowly and carefully, not taking more than they need and allowing the plants to recover quickly (possibly even using subtle magics or mundane means to boost the health of the plant in other ways to make up for it). They literally "preserve" the plants they drain the energy from.

Ah, didn't realize that. I thought they were pulling energy from within.

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Defilers possibly can become defilers again (there is even a sorcerer king who managed that), but this requires very long periods of being "cold turkey" before they regain the balance needed. They can't switch between defiling and preserving at will any more.

You'd model this with a quest etc and spending the CP to make up the difference between their current energy pool and the cost of the same pool for a preserver?

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

I allowed that option for preservers because I wanted to offer them temptation - but I didn't want to make it cost any additional points for them because I didn't want to punish preservers who remain "virtuous" by charging points for an option they will never use.

So at what point does a preserver become a defiler? When their defiler taint hits -10?

Also, what other supernatural abilities are you planning on? Obviously psi. Keeping druids and the elemental clerics? I always had trouble figuring out how exactly to do Templars. Though Divine Power might be handy....

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

You'd model this with a quest etc and spending the CP to make up the difference between their current energy pool and the cost of the same pool for a preserver?

I'm not sure if I'd require CPs per see (it would be equally justifiable that their Energy Pool just drops to the lower value corresponding to the CPs it is worth).

But a quest would certainly be in order. I'd ask: "You realize that you have screwed up, and want to rebuild your life as a preserver. How do you plan on bringing your life into balance again?"

The quest is then based on these answers, and it can be as deep as any story about a recovering drug addict.

So at what point does a preserver become a defiler? When their defiler taint hits -10?

Sounds like a good value.

Also, what other supernatural abilities are you planning on? Obviously psi. Keeping druids and the elemental clerics? I always had trouble figuring out how exactly to do Templars. Though Divine Power might be handy....

All of the above, although I am contemplating using different mechanics to better distinguish druids and elemental clerics. Druids often sound like they would work well with Path magic, while clerics might work use the elemental powers from GURPS Powers. I should probably read the supplements on clerics again...

I'm not quite sure how to represent Templars yet. Their powers always sound like something that is granted, not something that is learned, so again Powers with the Pact limitation would probably work well.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Canonically, all arcane magic on Athas (with the exception of that "sun magic" that Sadira from the novel uses) draws energy from plants.

Nitpick, that should be "draws energy from living things" it's possible to power magic from your own life-energy, or the life-energy of other animals and people, as well as plants.

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

As described, defiling has a lot of similarities with drug addiction - they get a "rush" as they drain the energy of plants. Preservers know how to defile - they know how to drain energy from plants, after all - but they have carefully trained themselves to restrain from sucking all the energy out of them. This requires a lot of focus and willpower - and once you are used to the rush of energy of defiling, it becomes harder and harder to maintain. Defilers possibly can become defilers again (there is even a sorcerer king who managed that), but this requires very long periods of being "cold turkey" before they regain the balance needed. They can't switch between defiling and preserving at will any more.

IIRC, I believe Hamanu was able to switch between the two types in "The rise and fall of a dragon king".