GURPS Dark Sun Conversion

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I don't see your point, Exalted is also "Post-apocalypse fantasy." EDIT: "Post-apocalypse fantasy." doesn't mean low point totals any more than "gritty" does.

It means it's pretty likely that someone is going to want to run a low-powered game, IME. Soon as you put in "post-apoc" some people are going to want to run games about surviving in the harsh environment. You should ALSO be able to support psionic chambara mutant dinosaur combat in the fallen ruins of a magical past, but that's a hell of a lot easier to start low and build up to than it is to go the other way.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

3rd level is 3 times the normal starting level in AD&D.

Sure, but D&D starts you out as incompetents. You don't translate mechanics directly between the two systems.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Much of DF doesn't seem appropriate for Dark Sun.

But a lot of it is stealable with slight tweaking and will save you work.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

It means it's pretty likely that someone is going to want to run a low-powered game, IME. Soon as you put in "post-apoc" some people are going to want to run games about surviving in the harsh environment.

And I still don't see your point, high point games aren't incompatible with games about surviving in the harsh environment:

Originally Posted by Kromm

This is true. My campaign is at the 800- to 900-point level. I use all the rules for accumulated wounds, bleeding, crippling, extreme dismemberment, fatigue, hit-location effects, knockdown, shock, and stunning. I also check for disease in plague-ridden areas, and penalize PCs who miss water, sleep, or food. This results in a very gritty feel! And I don't even use the rules for infection, partial injuries, severe bleeding, or horrible wounds to the neck/skull/veins/vitals, nor do I require Fright Checks for anything less than supernatural fear. "Turning on" those rules would make things even grittier.

To the OP: Don't equate "high-powered" with "cinematic." You can have a gritty, dirty, nasty game at 1,000 points or a game where all the grit gets swept under the carpet at 50 points. Either "feel" is 95% due to campaign ground rules and perhaps only 5% due to character abilities. Choose point level solely on the strength of what abilities you want to see in the setting.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

You don't translate mechanics directly between the two systems.

I'm point out that 3rd level characters feel alot more powerful than 1st level characters. This doesn't involve "translating mechanics directly between the two systems" in any way.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

And I still don't see your point, high point games aren't incompatible with games about surviving in the harsh environment:

You seem to be refuting a point I'm not making.

Yes, you can have high point gritty games. But it tends to break the SoD of players (IME) if everyone in the setting is a high point character. And if you make racial templates all hundreds of points, why the heck are humans the dominant species in the setting?

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I'm point out that 3rd level characters feel alot more powerful than 1st level characters. This doesn't involve "translating mechanics directly between the two systems" in any way.

But the equivalent GURPS characters are (roughly) the book's stock "beginning adventurer" point recommendation. Just because GURPS starts you out as actually competent in a few areas doesn't mean that GURPS characters in GURPS Dark Sun need to feel stronger than "standard" GURPS characters, so long as you still end up in roughly the same ballpark of competence as their D&D equivalents.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

You seem to be refuting a point I'm not making.

If your point wasn't related to "surviving in the harsh environment" then why did you bring it up?

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Yes, you can have high point gritty games. But it tends to break the SoD of players (IME) if everyone in the setting is a high point character.

Why? Do you get upset with the number points elephants have in ST? Why is any racial point total more believable than any other?

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

And if you make racial templates all hundreds of points, why the heck are humans the dominant species in the setting?

If city accountants are worth more points than ghetto thugs, how the heck are are the thugs able to win fight against them? It's not just the point totals, it's how those point are spent. Half giants aren't going to dominate the world no matter how strong they are, because they are stupid. Thri-Kreen are the best at their niche (survival), but that doesn't translate to being the best able to rule the world.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

If your point wasn't related to "surviving in the harsh environment" then why did you bring it up?

Most post-apoc games tend to play up the "surviving the environment" angle. They take away any safety net of civilization to fall back on. Now, you can do high point games in which not only are you capable of surviving the environment, but can also beat up the aforementioned psychic mutant dinosaurs. But ideally you also want enough flexibility to allow people to play games in which they JUST worry about the environment and getting a caravan from one city-state to the next.

You are talking about how high point games can also be gritty. Yes. Sure. That has nothing to do with keeping point totals low enough for non-humans that you can play a campaign with a thri-kreen and a caravan guard and not have the caravan guard be able to beat up psychic mutant dinosaurs in addition to surviving the environment when the game was only supposed to be about surviving the environment.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Why? Do you get upset with the number points elephants have in ST? Why is any racial point total more believable than any other?

Because elephants aren't fellow sentients directly competing with us for resources in a world where said resources are scarce.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

If city accountants are worth more points than ghetto thugs, how the heck are are the thugs able to win fight against them? It's not just the point totals, it's how those point are spent. Half giants aren't going to dominate the world no matter how strong they are, because they are stupid. Thri-Kreen are the best at their niche (survival), but that doesn't translate to being the best able to rule the world.

The thri-kreen are freakin super-velociraptors that eat other sentients, as you've written them.

The point is, the way you've written the racial templates allows you to play the types of games you like, but doesn't allow people to play lower-power games with all the races if they want lower power levels. That works fine if we're playing the game you like. It's less useful as a generic conversion for whoever may wander along.

I mean, really. What point totals do you play at? Look at the DF templates. They're 250 points, and scarily competent though most of them neglect survival aspects. Even tacking on another 50 points of survival abilities, any game of yours that includes thri-kreen will also allow regular humans as competent as DF folks. Is that really the most useful generic racial template? It allows you to play the types of games you're interested in, sure. Does it allow others maximum choices in the types of games they want to play?

[Pragmatic]

Going on with the topic:

I think that preserving/defiling should work with "threshold magic." But changing the catastrophes to work with taking further steps along the defiling route towards the (insert name of undead creature that comes from doing too much defiling; I forget what its name was, and how exactly it worked with defiling...). Basically, the more you defile, the more the taint tends to build up in you.

Possibly giving each terrain a certain amount of mana that can be safely drawn per second. Either take the time to gather by spreading it around, or simply over-gather and wipe out several hexes (and risking picking up points towards a disadvantage).

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Most post-apoc games tend to play up the "surviving the environment" angle. They take away any safety net of civilization to fall back on. Now, you can do high point games in which not only are you capable of surviving the environment, but can also beat up the aforementioned psychic mutant dinosaurs.

"You seem to be refuting a point I'm not making." Where did this obsession with psychic mutant dinosaurs come from? You seem to be trying to put words into my mouth.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

But ideally you also want enough flexibility to allow people to play games in which they JUST worry about the environment and getting a caravan from one city-state to the next.

"You seem to be refuting a point I'm not making." And your point is? I haven't disagreed with the "JUST worry about the environment" angle. Howeve, the Thri-Kreen template isn't designed to worry about crossing the wastelands, because that's exactly what they're good at! Have you read Thri-Kreen of Athas?

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

The thri-kreen are freakin super-velociraptors that eat other sentients, as you've written them.

Yes, they are. Have you read Thri-Kreen of Athas?

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

The point is, the way you've written the racial templates allows you to play the types of games you like,

I've written the templates with the goal of verisimilitude. Some come out high when converted to GURPS.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

It's less useful as a generic conversion for whoever may wander along.

I'm not suggesting a "generic" conversion, I'm making a Dark sun conversion.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Look at the DF templates.

I'm looking at the Banestorm Racial templates. They range from -60 points to 627!, yet people still mange to play in that setting some how.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

"You seem to be refuting a point I'm not making."

Really? We can't be civil anymore?

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Where did this obsession with psychic mutant dinosaurs come from?

Because Dark Sun has psychic mutant dinosaurs that you fight. That's what higher level games tend to be about. And overthrowing god-kings. And looting ruins of ancient magical kingdoms.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

You seem to be trying to put words into my mouth.

No. I'm saying that a conversion should allow people to play all different types of games, from trying to cross the desert from one city-state to another Caravan to Ein Arris style, to going all jackie chan with a sharpened shinbone on something that outmasses you by 5 tons in an arena, to facing down the closest thing to a god the setting has.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

And your point is? I haven't disagreed with the "JUST worry about the environment" angle. Howeve, the Thri-Kreen template isn't designed to worry about crossing the wastelands, because that's exactly what they're good at!

They don't need three extra attacks that D&D says they get. They don't need to jump exactly as high as D&D says they do. They don't need lots of things. You just need to model "big insect-man who is a social misfit." They don't need to be 300 points. They can be, sure. But I think you're snagging too many D&D mechanics to model, and making it so that in a GURPS Dark Sun game with the same approximate power level as a beginning D&D Dark Sun game, people can't afford to play the same character options that they can in D&D.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Yes, they are. Have you read Thri-Kreen of Athas?

Thumbed through it back in the day.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I've written the templates with the goal of verisimilitude. Some come out high when converted to GURPS.

Which is more important? That things in GURPS exactly match the description of things in D&D, or that people can play the same things in the conversion that they can in D&D?

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I'm not suggesting a "generic" conversion, I'm making a Dark sun conversion.

Are you making a Dark Sun conversion for just your preferred power level? Or for anyone who wants to play a Dark Sun game at a variety of power levels? I think the second is more useful.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I'm looking at the Banestorm Racial templates. They range from -60 points to 627!, yet people still mange to play in that setting some how.

People don't play Djinn. The standard Dark Sun races were playable by everyone. Look at Banestorm racial templates. All the ones that you might normally expect to see in a game are under about 150 points.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Going on with the topic:

I think that preserving/defiling should work with "threshold magic." But changing the catastrophes to work with taking further steps along the defiling route towards the (insert name of undead creature that comes from doing too much defiling; I forget what its name was, and how exactly it worked with defiling...). Basically, the more you defile, the more the taint tends to build up in you.

Possibly giving each terrain a certain amount of mana that can be safely drawn per second. Either take the time to gather by spreading it around, or simply over-gather and wipe out several hexes (and risking picking up points towards a disadvantage).

I've been thinking about this as well. One issue is that there are differing explanations between the two boxed sets when precisely you drain the energy from the plants - during the preparation of the spells, or during the casting. Personally, I think it would be neat if both options were possible, for defilers - this makes them more versatile and sneaky, and thus it's harder for preservers to show that they are different than those vile defiling bastards.

So here is how it works for preservers: They have an Energy Pool (with a base point value of 3 points per level, as usual). It comes with the limitation "Preparation Required" - for each point of energy they want to recover for it, they need to spend some time in natural surroundings, depending on just how fast they recover energy as described in the Recover Energy spell. Since this always takes at least one minute per energy point, and thus the time they do this will usually be at least 10 minutes or more (depending on the size of their Energy Pool), I will make this a -30% limitation, bringing the cost to 2.1 points per level.

Preservers start out with an Energy Pool of 15 worth 32 points (well, technically it's 31.5 rounded up). From this we subtract the Secret (Possible Death) disadvantage, which is worth -30 points, so they only need to pay 2 points for this.


Defilers have two options. They can draw upon the Energy Pool at any time, but it counts as a Nuisance Effect with a -4 reaction penalty and it's obvious too, for -25%. Furthermore, it strains the body, costing either 3 FP or 1 FP and 1 HP, for a further -15% and a total limitation of -40%. They can also meditate somewhere in peace and quiet like preservers. In that case they can gather energy four times as fast as an equivalent preserver would, thus reducing the Preparation Required limitation to -15%. But they still have the Nuisance Effect, so the limitation for that is still -40%. Thus, Defiler Energy Pools cost 1.8 points per level.

Defilers start out with an Energy Pool of 17 for 31 (or 30.6, rounded up) points. After subtracting their Secret, this is reduced to 1 point. At the GM's option, players of defilers might take appropriate "creepy" disadvantages like Disturbing Voice or Uncanny Features even after character creation and exchange their points for additional levels of Energy Pool.


Preservers can also use either defiling option at any time - which might be very tempting as it allows quick access to needed energy. However, this is not worth any additional points since it is a trap leading down to defilerdom. For every 20 points of energy a preserver uses in this way to power spells, he gets a -1 to the casting rolls of all non-defiling spells. The GM might allow this penalty to recover over time, possibly by requiring extended quests into pristine wilderness areas while not using any magic at all.


How does this sound?

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Going on with the topic:

I think that preserving/defiling should work with "threshold magic." But changing the catastrophes to work with taking further steps along the defiling route towards the (insert name of undead creature that comes from doing too much defiling; I forget what its name was, and how exactly it worked with defiling...). Basically, the more you defile, the more the taint tends to build up in you.

Possibly giving each terrain a certain amount of mana that can be safely drawn per second. Either take the time to gather by spreading it around, or simply over-gather and wipe out several hexes (and risking picking up points towards a disadvantage).

Threshold magic works, or maybe a modification of Leech + Lifebane. Plus really high level defilers could actually suck the life right out of people. Part of why I kind of like taking the advantage route, you can start with plant Leech + Magery and upgrade to non-limited Leech once you're powerful enough.

Are you talking about turning into something besides a Dragon from too much defiling? Turning into a dragon is supposed to be REALLY hard.

I'd take a look at the plant density/sanctity rules from GURPS: Plant Magic and use that to determine local available energy.