Bringing a gun to bear.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Houserules about target acquisition and awareness may apply, but there's no RAW about that that I know of.

Perception check when awareness is in doubt, is RAW

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Perception check when awareness is in doubt, is RAW

I'm not sure that actually means anything as a rule, but regardless it fails to address the key question: Can one take a Move to step around a corner, see who is there, and then decide what to do? Can one take an Attack/AoA/Move and Attack to step out, observe, and then shoot a newly-discovered target?

If you can do this, the aggressor can automatically win initiative against a defender who isn't actively covering the corner, even if they don't know the defender is there at all, so long as they're in combat time.

It would seem that someone with ETS should be able to. For anyone else, I'm dubious.

[roguebfl]

I would say Move and attack, but choice not to attack if you don't notice a valid target is fair, but not Move converted to a Move and attack. this assuming combat time. else back to partial surpize

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

I would say Move and attack, but choice not to attack if you don't notice a valid target is fair, but not Move converted to a Move and attack. this assuming combat time. else back to partial surpize

So that means, any time you can assert that combat time is on, if you bust into a room with a Move and Attack you have the drop on everyone in the room who isn't Waiting for you, even if you had no idea that they were there and they expected you.

I don't like that conclusion much.

I'd seriously consider requiring, as a houserule, that non-ETS characters become aware of a target before the start of the Maneuver in which you attack it. Though that leaves the definition of 'aware' vague...is it enough to know they exist? If not, to what degree do you need to know where they are?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

So that means, any time you can assert that combat time is on, if you bust into a room with a Move and Attack you have the drop on everyone in the room who isn't Waiting for you, even if you had no idea that they were there and they expected you.

As the GM as control over combat time is on or not, not going to be a problem

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

As the GM as control over combat time is on or not, not going to be a problem

That makes it worse, not better. If the rules are violently inconsistent, edge cases break. Loading it on the GM just means that they have to decide how it goes horribly wrong.

Suppose, in a firefight, you decide to duck inside a building. Suddenly you discover that there are a couple of hostile guys in there who you hadn't known about. They didn't expect you to do that, so they're not ready to perforate you the moment you cross the threshold. You're in a firefight already, so you're well into combat time. Surprise mechanics don't make any sense at this point in the scenario. But combat mechanics say that, if you took a Move and Attack, the fact that you're the idiot who ran blind around the corner gives you the right to the first burst.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That makes it worse, not better. If the rules are violently inconsistent, edge cases break. Loading it on the GM just means that they have to decide how it goes horribly wrong.

Suppose, in a firefight, you decide to duck inside a building. Suddenly you discover that there are a couple of hostile guys in there who you hadn't known about. They didn't expect you to do that, so they're not ready to perforate you the moment you cross the threshold. You're in a firefight already, so you're well into combat time. Surprise mechanics don't make any sense at this point in the scenario. But combat mechanics say that, if you took a Move and Attack, the fact that you're the idiot who ran blind around the corner gives you the right to the first burst.

Which given the Move and Attack is Captured at 9, and RoF is margin of scucss it more like a lucky shot. But just as likey is the other side has a Wait going, simple because if combat time had already kicked in rather than surpize rules then the action music is already playing.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Which given the Move and Attack is Captured at 9, and RoF is margin of scucss it more like a lucky shot. But just as likey is the other side has a Wait going, simple because if combat time had already kicked in rather than surpize rules then the action music is already playing.

Ranged Move and Attack is not the same as melee Move and Attack. There's no cap.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by pieclone

There's a significant difference between "fast-draw" which I would say is moving from "slung" to "ready" and "bringing to bear" which would simply be moving from one point of aim to another from a "ready" tactical position. For the latter it's already covered by game mechanics as firing without aiming is a Snap-Shot with weapon Acc. For the former then you're definitely looking at Snap-Shot penalties as you won't have had time to hit the "Acquire" part of the "Sight, Acquire, Fire" drill. I'd probably apply a further penalty well on account of my cruelty.

And that's today's quote marks exhausted.

I see other people already pointed out that there's no Snap Shot in 4e, but how is any of the above relevant to my pointing out that, contrary to the post I was replying to, there is a relevant RAW Fast-Draw specialty for a rifle?

[Kromm]

If you're aggressively barging in on people using Move and Attack while they have a Wait, then you're shooting at a penalty (the worse of -2 or Bulk) . . . after they shoot you. They quite likely have the benefit of Aim, too, since one can Wait and Aim at a doorway- or window-sized spot (p. B390). With handguns, you'll be at -2 and they'll be at +2, and they'll go first. With rifles, you'll be at -4 to -6 and they'll be at +4 to +6, and they'll still go first. Unless you have 4-12 levels more skill, you'll likely lose.

If you're aggressively barging in on people using Move and Attack while they don't have a Wait, then you may well take them out. They were obviously milling around and doing something else (Move, Ready to get weapons out, Concentrate on some task, Attack on someone who isn't you, All-Out Defense to cower in a corner, etc.) . . . or maybe they were taking a Do Nothing and staring at the wall in a low-readiness state.

In any situation where one party is expecting trouble, their assumed start-of-combat-time maneuver is Wait. When it isn't, well, they weren't expecting trouble, and an agressive charge may well dominate them. This seems to fit with actual tactical doctrine, which is that you don't charge into an area you can't see when there might be an ambush there (you may well charge an ambush after it goes off, revealing itself), but that you do sometimes charge unprepared people to cause maximum surprise and take them out before they can react.