[LT] Sheaths for melee weapons

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Except that the first of those swords was specifically used as a ceremonial blade, a coronation piece, and the second blade was never used, indicating its status as likely that of a large wall hanger.

The fact that the reproductions are heavier than the originals is simply a symptom of the amateur decorative status of much current sword manufacturing.

Boy, that seems to pack in a lot of assumptions/issues!

As I said before, the reproductions are their own bag of problems -- and the point about ceremonial weapons is absolutely an issue, were it not made into a reproduction sword . . . My point, rather, is that we do in fact have weights for "broadswords" over 2.5 lbs. -- whether they meets Dan's very self-selecting criteria of 2.5 pounds is immaterial, not a feature. Many of the reproductions for this category are quite light (2 lbs. or less in Christian Fletchers case, some heavier, like the Del-Tin sword I have) but how that number became an "a priori" requirement for a "real sword" is really quite suspect. Mostly this comes down to a "no true sword" argument, which is extremely tedious and overly simplistic, and really, not very helpful for an adventure game where the 3 lb. sword is likely to be used (virtually speaking) for killing orcs. YMMV.

Fact is, in a perfect world, I'd give the lighter swords not only a quality advantage, but likely the balanced option as well. But I would not in fact say those 3-3.5 lbs swords were not "swords." I'd make the heavier ones unbalanced, say a -1 to skill, and the really bad ones would get worse stats. Nevertheless, combined with the Matter of Inches and other stuff in MA, and the weapon options in LTC, we are doing okay.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by safisher

Fact is, in a perfect world, I'd give the lighter swords not only a quality advantage, but likely the balanced option as well. But I would not in fact say those 3-3.5 lbs swords were not "swords." I'd make the heavier ones unbalanced, say a -1 to skill, and the really bad ones would get worse stats. Nevertheless, combined with the Matter of Inches and other stuff in MA, and the weapon options in LTC, we are doing okay.

See to me, the issue is more about the skills and styles used, if the heavier ones are unbalanced the wielder will use a second hand as needed, that's not broadsword skill.
At some point a cut-off is needed, and for me that 40" line works fine, it's the meter long length, the nose to hand length, you go past that length and you got yourself a hand-and-a-half sword and not a broadsword.

For full disclosure, I should point out that in the game I'm currently running I merged broadswords with shortswords in a Shortsword skill, and put the hand-and-a-half swords and bastards swords with the two-handed swords in a Longsword skill, with -3 defaults to each other.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

See to me, the issue is more about the skills and styles used, if the heavier ones are unbalanced the wielder will use a second hand as needed, that's not broadsword skill.
At some point a cut-off is needed, and for me that 40" line works fine, it's the meter long length, the nose to hand length, you go past that length and you got yourself a hand-and-a-half sword and not a broadsword.

Yes, it is all about benchmarks. That's why all this carping about "real" and "true" and "right" and "wrong" is a little hard to swallow. I find it intellectually offensive to be told "this is how it is" when clearly what's going on is an intellectual debate with various sides marshaling their evidence. And with scant amounts of it to boot. Let's not forget, very few "experts" are out handling the surviving examples, and virtually no one is fighting with swords in real combat to tell use what happens. You'd come closer to convincing me with that experience, but alas, no such luck.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by safisher

Yes, it is all about benchmarks. That's why all this carping about "real" and "true" and "right" and "wrong" is a little hard to swallow. I find it intellectually offensive to be told "this is how it is" when clearly what's going on is an intellectual debate with various sides marshaling their evidence. And with scant amounts of it to boot. Let's not forget, very few "experts" are out handling the surviving examples, and virtually no one is fighting with swords in real combat to tell use what happens. You'd come closer to convincing me with that experience, but alas, no such luck.

Heh, I'd say the issue should be more about what swords you'd use with what skills, because otherwise you end up talking past each other without making any sense to each other, putting a second hand on the weapon changes the whole point of the discussion from one-handed to one-and-a-half-handed.

GURPS Broadsword skill shouldn't be a separate skill from GURPS Shortsword as any balanced weapon you can use with one of the skills you can use with the other, but the GURPS Two-handed Sword skill is a separate skill and it should include unbalanced swords which need a second hand for some moves bastard swords and longswords aren't broadswords/shortswords.

I don't care how powerful your wrists are, if the CoB on a sword is past a certain point you don't have the same control on the sword as you would otherwise, and you will put your other hand on the hilt/pommel, that means that sword is not a balanced "broadsword/shortsword", it's a one-and-a-half-handed.

Personally I think there should just be two skills, GURPS Shortsword for shortswords and broadswords, and GURPS Longsword for bastard swords and two-handed swords, but if you wanted there to be 3 skills you shouldn't split the middle of a one-handed sword range, but instead create a one-and-a-half-handed range.

Current                 Option 1         Option 2
Shortsword                               One-Handed Sword
Broadsword              Shortsword       One-and-Half-Handed Sword
Two-Handed Sword        Longsword        Two-Handed Sword

Of course Kromm would tell us to wait until 5e and go jump in a lake until then.
*grin*

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Current                 Option 1         Option 2
Shortsword                               One-Handed Sword
Broadsword              Shortsword       One-and-Half-Handed Sword
Two-Handed Sword        Longsword        Two-Handed Sword

Of course Kromm would tell us to wait until 5e and go jump in a lake until then.

Nice looking table. It seems more likely that he'd tell you to go ahead and do what you like for your own games, and don't hold your breath waiting for 5E ;)

Matty - "Don't tell me -- you have just the right tool."
Ned - "I don't talk that way."