Are arrows prices too low?

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

For good reason, the price of weapons found in LT is the price for that weapon at any TL (in Gurps $). Prices only for LT would be a violation of basic 4e principles. The price stays the same, it'ss tartign wealth that chnges by the TL.

This doesn't fix problems of relative pricing. The OP is complaining that arrows cost too much relative to bows. Changing starting wealth would not change that.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by gjc8

This doesn't fix problems of relative pricing. The OP is complaining that arrows cost too much relative to bows. Changing starting wealth would not change that.

In principle, we could have fixed that. We would have had to define the "arrows" in the Basic Set as some sort of low end arrows that aren't as expensive as the good arrows used in a military setting, but that's been done for other things.

In practice, it just wasn't a big priority for us. Painstaking accuracy about the price of one commodity when huge numbers of other commodities are at "close enough" prices seems pointless. And trying to acquire the data for a roughly correct set of prices good in any historical era would be a huge undertaking.

Bill Stoddard

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by whswhs

In principle, we could have fixed that. We would have had to define the "arrows" in the Basic Set as some sort of low end arrows that aren't as expensive as the good arrows used in a military setting, but that's been done for other things.

In practice, it just wasn't a big priority for us. Painstaking accuracy about the price of one commodity when huge numbers of other commodities are at "close enough" prices seems pointless. And trying to acquire the data for a roughly correct set of prices good in any historical era would be a huge undertaking.

Bill Stoddard

To be fair to the authors and playtesters, there WAS discussion about kinds, types, and prices for arrows, and the overall conclusion was "too much work for too little benefit given other pressing issues in the manuscript."

There's enough variation of arrow type, design, and function that a Pyramid or (short) e23 supplement would be fairly easy to fill from a wordcount point of view, though difficult to integrate the very complicated actual physics of arrows and bows with simple, gameable rules. Not saying it can't be done, or that I mightn't take a crack at it one day. :-)

From a strictly PC-centric point of view, though...has anyone really had an issue with players running out of arrows? Would a $6 arrow vs a $2 or $3 arrow really make a quiver full of arrows be a resource challenge? Not trying to be insulting...just honestly curious. It's NEVER come up in any game I've run.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

From a strictly PC-centric point of view, though...has anyone really had an issue with players running out of arrows? Would a $6 arrow vs a $2 or $3 arrow really make a quiver full of arrows be a resource challenge? Not trying to be insulting...just honestly curious. It's NEVER come up in any game I've run.

The cost and weight of arrows often comes up in my games, yes.

If you have a Heroic Archer Bow Weapon Master who shoots at least one arrow per turn, he can quickly deplete any quiver it would be reasonable for him to carry around.

In fact, the two PCs who routinely use bows have both invested in Cornucopia magical quivers, just so they don't run out so often. If the base cost of arrows were $6 instead of $2, that would have made a large difference to the energy cost to enchant those items and therefore their final cost.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The cost and weight of arrows often comes up in my games, yes.

If you have a Heroic Archer Bow Weapon Master who shoots at least one arrow per turn, he can quickly deplete any quiver it would be reasonable for him to carry around.

In fact, the two PCs who routinely use bows have both invested in Cornucopia magical quivers, just so they don't run out so often. If the base cost of arrows were $6 instead of $2, that would have made a large difference to the energy cost to enchant those items and therefore their final cost.

Interesting, thanks. I've literally never run into this in a GURPS game. Of course, my games predated Heroic Archer + Weapon Master combination, and my games had enough PCs in them (10-15) that fights weren't often that many rounds.

[Dunadin777]

I like the idea of having war arrows costing $6 and having average stats, and making a target or hunting arrow that costs $2 and has Armor divisor (0.5). I would check this figure by comparing to the Fletcher job. IDHMBWM, but I seem to recall it being in LTC3 as a struggling job of about $350 per month. If you figure that a fletcher makes 1/3 (not bad considering that he needs to buy or trade for arrow-heads, shafts, and feathers) profit on each arrow, then that's $2 profit per arrow, or 175 arrows made per month. Based on those numbers, it takes a little more than an hour of labor for a fletcher to make each arrow.

That sounds about right to me, so I'd say that $6 sounds like a reasonable standard cost, with the cheaper $2 arrow possibly representing a cheap arrow made by subsistence hunters or villages too small to support a fletcher.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Interesting, thanks. I've literally never run into this in a GURPS game. Of course, my games predated Heroic Archer + Weapon Master combination, and my games had enough PCs in them (10-15) that fights weren't often that many rounds.

At least two Cornucopia Quivers were purchased during my World of D'y'r't game. More a thing of long term convenience and sustainability than tactical advantage but when a perpetual supply of ammo costs the same as 50 individual rounds (at Q&D prces) it's an obviously good deal.

Not just bows and crossbows but single shot rifles too. Lack of magic is about the only reason not to do it.


Also for snipers, when you pull a new round out of the quiver the previous one you drew disappears. Beats heck out those sabot rounds for foiling forensics.

[Purple Haze]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

At least two Cornucopia Quivers were purchased during my World of D'y'r't game. More a thing of long term convenience and sustainability than tactical advantage but when a perpetual supply of ammo costs the same as 50 individual rounds (at Q&D prces) it's an obviously good deal.

Not just bows and crossbows but single shot rifles too. Lack of magic is about the only reason not to do it.


Also for snipers, when you pull a new round out of the quiver the previous one you drew disappears. Beats heck out those sabot rounds for foiling forensics.

Not much good for English longbowmen who were expected to keep three in the air.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

From a strictly PC-centric point of view, though...has anyone really had an issue with players running out of arrows? Would a $6 arrow vs a $2 or $3 arrow really make a quiver full of arrows be a resource challenge? Not trying to be insulting...just honestly curious. It's NEVER come up in any game I've run.

It does come up when there are Fine Arrows, because they triple the base cost and if the base cost is 6, a quiver full of Fine Arrows would cost 180 rather than 60 - which is quite significant for something you'll have to buy again every few sessions (at least, in campaigns where the PCs are poor adventures).

It's not that the PC run out of arrows during combat, is that he has to stop to buy them, or he can lose them after dropping the quiver in a Fast-Draw critical failure, and so on.

And note that even without Heroic Archer, a PC might very well use 5 arrows in a single combat scene, so in just 4 scenes he can finish is quiver (which might be relevant if he is in the wilderness).

OF COURSE all this is only relevant in games which keep track of ammos and resources - but IMHO many low tech / fantasy games do.

[Kalzazz]

Are there rules anywhere for whether or not arrows can be reused?

After combat ends one of the things archers will want to do is try and recover arrows