Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Then I'm afraid GURPS Lite is not the product for you.

I would hardly call it a product.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Seriously? How many genres absolutely need SMGs? WWII or early Cold War Spec Ops? Don't run uber-detailed gun-bunny games with GURPS Lite. You can still run lots and lots of games, basically anything that doesn't require modern milspec hardware or supernatural powers. Historical Low Fantasy, Police Procedurals, Tea Cozies, Wilderness Survival, most Horror, most (non-mil, not Space Opera) SF.

My RP isn't uber-detailed, but it would be nice to have the stats for a submachine gun available. It saves me pulling numbers out of my ass that look like fudge but don't taste (or smell) as good. If GURPS Lite Fourth Edition can provide the stats for a pump-action shotgun and a 9mm semi-automatic pistol, why can't they provide the stats for a submachine gun?

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No idea, I guess they didn't consider it errata. You can always fudge something. It's no worse than a lot of rules light free systems in that.

I don't feel like repeating myself. You can go back over my old replies for a detailed explanation, or look above for a simple (but less tasteful) version.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Then what's the issue exactly? If it didn't have sufficient detail in the traits, then it wouldn't be as useful to a player in a "full" GURPS game, would it?

Actually, I felt that there was sufficient detail in the traits, just not how and when to apply them. GURPS Lite Fourth Edition works as a resource for players because they're not pulling the strings behind the curtain.

I believe that if one of my players reads GURPS Lite Fourth Edition and decides that they want their character to be a surgeon, they should have the right to make their character a surgeon so long as they pick appropriate advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera and provide a decent backstory. Their character shouldn't be made useless because I don't know how to apply their skills in a situation because the manual doesn't specify, because the skills aren't even meant to be in the manual in the first place.

Dig?

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Don't run early 20th gun-bunny games.

My hands are tied.

However, that's not your problem and I'm not making it yours.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You should try to emulate some Agatha Christie, Arthur Conan Doyle, John London, John Grisham, Issac Asimov, or like 90% of the fiction ever written, that doesn't feature SMGs.

GURPS is a foreign concept to my regular players and it is an extraterrestrial concept to players who aren't regular.

I feel that the familiarity of a world grounded in reality as we know it now is the best way to ease them in, rather than shoving them straight into the deep-end, cold turkey.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No you don't. You need to buy the full product if you want to use all of its features. This isn't any different from demonstration versions of most things in the world.

I want a system that works. I don't want to read GURPS Lite and find "REFER TO SOMETHING ELSE OTHER THAN THIS" written under every other entry of advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I thought you agreed that that content is useful to GURPS player that doesn't own the Basic Set.

I do.

But I'm not playing. I'm a GM and I'm trying to create a fun, playable adventure.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you are going to run a demonstration game, don't try to break the system.

The system is already broken.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

To go back to your car analogy, you wouldn't try to test drive a car on the beach, in the rain, at 180mph, would you? Don't try to run Uber-Psionic-Gun-Bunnies-with-Magic-and-Kung Fu with GURPS Lite. It's a demo, run something simple, that covers the basic mechanics of the system (character creation, skill rolls and damage).

If the manual of the car mentions "can be driven on the beach, in the rain, at 180 mph", then why wouldn't I want to test it?

I'm not trying to run a "Uber-Psionic-Gun-Bunnies-with-Magic-and-Kung Fu" adventure, I'm trying to run a fun, playable adventure.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Again, if they did it would be less useful to somebody who is playing in a game that uses the full rules.

But GURPS Lite and standard GURPS don't even use the same mechanics, so, tell me, what the hell is the point?

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

"Why would a Caveman/Edwardian Schoolmarm/Hard-boiled Detective/Xeno-Biologist need a submachine gun, Larry?"

The question is "When?", not "Why?"

It also applies to everything else mentioned by Mailanka.

More replies coming.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Frosty

But I'm not playing. I'm a GM and I'm trying to create a fun, playable adventure.

Then buy the books instead of whining about a free product which is meant as a handout for players, not as a reference for GMs.

GURPS Lite is similar to read only Acrobat Reader, you can't modify a PDF or make a new one with it, you're only supposed to use Lite to get a rough idea of what the system is like.

Or in a more book-like reference, GURPS Lite is the equivalent of the blurb on the back of a paperback book, someone trying to run a game using just GURPS Lite is like someone writing a review of a book based on its back cover.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I want a system that works. I don't want to read GURPS Lite and find "REFER TO SOMETHING ELSE OTHER THAN THIS" written under every other entry of advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera.

Then you should probably guy Basic Set rather than try to use a distillation of the game's rules, by definition that means stuff is left out. You can't seriously be surprised that a lot of details are left out when the rules go from 600 pages long to 30 pages long.

[sjard]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I believe that if one of my players reads GURPS Lite Fourth Edition and decides that they want their character to be a surgeon, they should have the right to make their character a surgeon so long as they pick appropriate advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera and provide a decent backstory. Their character shouldn't be made useless because I don't know how to apply their skills in a situation because the manual doesn't specify, because the skills aren't even meant to be in the manual in the first place.

You may need to explain this one more. If you are looking for something that says something like:

For a surgeon to repair the damage to an artery caused by a bullet, while taking cover in a straw hut that is being attacked, have the player roll against their surgery skill at a -15 difficulty.

You won't find it even in the complete Basic Set. This is a GM call, and you won't find instructions like that in the book.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I would hardly call it a product.

It's a demo. You seem to expect the complete treatment of GURPS to be found in those 30 pages. To state this as simply as I can: It doesn't, because you can't fit 600 pages of material into 30, and it's not really the practice of SJGames to give away their complete product in their demo.

My RP isn't uber-detailed, but it would be nice to have the stats for a submachine gun available. It saves me pulling numbers out of my ass that look like fudge but don't taste (or smell) as good. If GURPS Lite Fourth Edition can provide the stats for a pump-action shotgun and a 9mm semi-automatic pistol, why can't they provide the stats for a submachine gun?

"I want X. Why can't they have X? X is very very important. It's obviously a major oversight that they didn't stick X into this tiny, free demo."

Replace X with any number of things that people might want. How is your demand any greater, any more important, than theirs? If you want a complete product, buy the book.

The system is already broken.

If you've already decided it's crap, why are we even having this discussion.

If the manual of the car mentions "can be driven on the beach, in the rain, at 180 mph", then why wouldn't I want to test it?

Except you don't have the car. Your analogy is terrible. If you really had the complete package and were testing it, you'd actually have a borrowed copy of GURPS. You don't have that, you have a cut down, very limited version. Like I said, it's more like a demo of a computer game, you know, the one that only lets you play 3 out of the games 20 levels, or only lets you play one of the three classes, or what have you.

You sound like the guy shouting "Why can't there be 20 levels! It says there are 20 levels." There are, in the full game. You don't have that. You have the demo. You want submachine guns? Buy the bit that has submachine guns.

It also applies to everything else mentioned by Mailanka.

I don't even know what this means.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Frosty

My RP isn't uber-detailed, but it would be nice to have the stats for a submachine gun available. It saves me pulling numbers out of my ass that look like fudge but don't taste (or smell) as good.

It looks like you are not very familiar with "simple & light" roleplaying games.
ALL the RPGs of that kind that I've ever read, assumed that the GM "would be pulling numbers out of his ass".
It's just how these games works; rules-lightness require fudging by the GM.
Detailed, complete games require lots of pages.

If you know any game which is really simple (e.g., 32 pages) yet complete and detailed, please tell me which game it is!
I will happily stop playing GURPS and use this "magical" game instead.

Originally Posted by Frosty

I would hardly call it a product.
(...)
The system is already broken.
(...)
But GURPS Lite and standard GURPS don't even use the same mechanics, so, tell me, what the hell is the point?

[EDIT: I self-censor my answer to that, in order to minimize further flaming. I wrote it before I realized the tone this thread had taken; I don't think I was offensive, but it could surely be interpreted as "unpleasant".
Frosty, I apologize if I was somewhat adversarial and I couldn't help you. Best wishes for your campaign.]

[Andrew Hackard]

This thread is getting heated and the people who would usually be able to explain this more clearly are all in a conference room about 30 feet from me, not paying attention to the forums. So I'm closing the thread until they have a chance to get back and take a look.

I would remind ALL posters that we require civility in discussions here; if you find yourself getting agitated because of something someone said, it's time to close the window and do something else for a while.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

This thread is getting heated and the people who would usually be able to explain this more clearly are all in a conference room about 30 feet from me, not paying attention to the forums.

Caught your PM and stopped in, as we're taking a lunch break. Thanks for the heads up.

Lupo and Frosty, you're both past the line with the arguments. There's no reason to get this cranky over a game, guys.

And to answer the OP, there are close to a hundred tables that you can find in the Basic Set that you won't find in Lite. That's because Lite is essentially a demo for real GURPS, so you can get a taste of what the game is like. It doesn't include everything you need to run any kind of game, and doesn't pretend to. On its own, you can't really run games focusing on magic, heavy guns, psi, space survival, etc. And that's why Lite is free. It includes as much GURPS as we could fit into 32 pages, with a focus on portability across multiple campaigns when possible.

(Please do not start a new thread on this subject or one transparently similar. Everyone needs to cool down on this topic. Thank you.)