Incident Dissonance vs. Recurring Dissonance

[Orlin]

I wasn't clear. Marisol had sworn the geas to someone else, similar to the situation that Rocket described. And since she had to pay someone for keeping her safe from a teams of Baalites and Belialites, yeah, it was earned. So I don't believe she gets two Will rolls and she's free.

I completely forgot to take that into consideration, given the circumstances. If Marisol geased herself, she would be faced with one of two options: to be where she said she was going to be to deliver her report, or suffer dissonance until she fulfills her promise. She would not get a Will roll to avoid it.

"And if necessary, a Lilim can make a promise of her own, imposing a Geas on herself to ensure that she makes good on her own promises. This gives her dissonance until she fulfills her word, as she may not resist her own Geas."

--In Nomine Core Rulebook, page 148

The time-increment factor for incurring dissonance seems to be what's confusing us (me), particularly given the nature of the example above. In order to clarify it, I took a look at the Core Guide and checked out Geas as a form of discord.

Apparently, the "time allotted to complete the task" helps to determine the level of the Geas. It's worded in such a way as to make it really tricky, but essentially, if you give me a burden and the amount of time it takes me to complete the burden is reasonably about one hour (drive to the library, sign up for a library card and get me this book,") it counts as a Geas/1.

Alternatively, you could give me a task that reasonably takes a day, a week, a month or a year (Geas/2-6.) From my understanding, the increment at which I would accrue "recurring dissonance" would be equal to the increment of time that it takes for my task to complete. If you decide to give me less time to complete a required task, you would also, presumably, reduce the interval at which I'd accrue dissonance.

So, let's say you want me to lay low and gather information on someone. Let's say that the GM decides that getting accurate information on this person would reasonably take about a week; you decide you want your first report within the day. If you refer to the chart (Core Rulebook, pp. 88), that would take a Geas/3 and bump it up to a Geas/4. Presumably, if I self-geased and then didn't report to you on time, I'd suffer 1 dissonance per day until I arrived.

Here's what's weird about this: if I self-geas with, "I promise officially to go to a nearby library and check out the book, Angels & Demons, by Dan Brown, which I will give to you upon my return," I get a rate of dissonance equal to one per hour until you get your book, and that's on a Geas/1! Granted, it all goes away when I give you the book...but still!

Do you suppose that you could spike the level of the Geas to shorten the "interval time" without shortening the time that you've allotted for the task to be complete?

If I self-geased with, "I promise officially that I will have a full report by next Wednesday at 10:00AM -- and not an hour later," and then swore a Geas/5 instead of a Geas/3 (treating the Geas as if you'd only given me an hour to work with for a seven day job), every hour that I kept you waiting would smack me with a point of dissonance, would it not?

Doesn't that work with anyone who is Celestially aware who swears a geas instead of having it inflicted on them?

Very good catch. I didn't see this until I cross-referenced the Infernal Player's Guide (page 50), but what you're referring to -- from a Celestial -- is known as a promise.

If Betharan, Lilim of the Game, decides to spare Curtis, the mewling Impudite of Lust, from a near-eternal existence of suffering, she could spend a moment of concentration and take an unspecified promise. This promise would manifest as the Geas discord (in this case, a Geas/6,) presumably at a level equal to the need(s) that was met in exchange.

In exchange for Curtis' promise, Betharan would get a Geas-token -- completely different from a Geas-hook. This token is a Celestial object that usually manifests as a little heart-shaped gem that, when focused on, will summon up an image of Curtis, as he appeared when he swore his promise. Betharan could change the appearance of the Geas-token if she so desired; she could make it into a broach, an earring, or even a playing card with a gem-encrusted symbol. I think it just has to be gem-like.

The Geas would manifest around Curtis' Celestial form as well, but it would be as a form of bondage. A collar, an armlet with a keyhole, a fancy leg iron...you get the idea.

I don't think the Lassie comparison works for this reason: An Impudite's Dissonance condition doesn't work like a geas. One point per DEATH, not day.

Yes, I agree. Technically an Impudite *can* get dissonance from allowing a mortal to die as a result of inaction (I'd probably change it to "causing the death of a mortal, either directly or indirectly."), but he should only get 1 dissonance as a result, because a mortal can only die once.

Someone else brought up an almost-identical example of this in another thread and stated that they would shell out one point per day, which is why I used it. I think the only difference is that I'd be willing to shell out the dissonance in advance and shave it off if the Impudite went back and saved the human from death.

Edited to add: Marisol has the hook set by agreeing to it. She's sworn the geas. The important thing is that she still is not forced to fly the red eye if she doesn't want to. A geas isn't mind control or action control. Not sure if that is what you are inferring.

Yeah, my bad. It came out wrong because I was actually mistaken.

I was under the impression that if Marisol failed her Will roll, she would have to go -- and given that the Will roll was near impossible to make, I assumed that she'd probably fail.

In fact, failing a Will roll just "sets the hook" and turns a potential Geas into an actual Geas. Once the hook sets, Marisol is affected as if she possessed the Geas discord (which, in fact, she would.) Swearing a promise (specified or unspecified) to a Lilim is basically the equivalent of setting the hook yourself.

...and if that last paragraph is correct (as I'm *almost* sure it is!), the rest of your post is right on the money.

P.S. In an attempt to back up some of my statements, I came across an interesting aside (I actually learned a lot from writing this all out.) Geas, with a capital G, is the noun; geas, with a lowercase g, is a verb. Cool, huh?

P.P.S. Rocket Man, you wouldn't be at all out of line to operate like that. I just feel like Servitors of Gabriel have it way too rough as it is, y'know? I mean, I understand that it's their responsibility to punish the cruel, but they're the only angels I know of who are all but guaranteed to have an attunement that comes with not only a stipulation, but a dissonance condition.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Orlin

P.P.S. Rocket Man, you wouldn't be at all out of line to operate like that. I just feel like Servitors of Gabriel have it way too rough as it is, y'know? I mean, I understand that it's their responsibility to punish the cruel, but they're the only angels I know of who are all but guaranteed to have an attunement that comes with not only a stipulation, but a dissonance condition.

True enough. Which may explain Dominic's less-than-sanguine feelings toward her.

[JCD]

Yeah, my bad. It came out wrong because I was actually mistaken.

I was under the impression that if Marisol failed her Will roll, she would have to go -- and given that the Will roll was near impossible to make, I assumed that she'd probably fail.

I made the exact same mistake. It wasn't until I started sifting through Lilith, IPG and Core that I got caught that.

A Geas still allows free will. That was tripping me up.

The time-increment factor for incurring dissonance seems to be what's confusing us (me), particularly given the nature of the example above. In order to clarify it, I took a look at the Core Guide and checked out Geas as a form of discord.

Apparently, the "time allotted to complete the task" helps to determine the level of the Geas. It's worded in such a way as to make it really tricky, but essentially, if you give me a burden and the amount of time it takes me to complete the burden is reasonably about one hour (drive to the library, sign up for a library card and get me this book,") it counts as a Geas/1.

SNIP

Here's what's weird about this: if I self-geas with, "I promise officially to go to a nearby library and check out the book, Angels & Demons, by Dan Brown, which I will give to you upon my return," I get a rate of dissonance equal to one per hour until you get your book, and that's on a Geas/1! Granted, it all goes away when I give you the book...but still!

I KNOW! If Marisol gyps Curtis over an annual visit to Columbus, she gets 1 Diss and 12 months of 'freedom' (albeit, I would not let her work off that Diss with any of the myriad ways to self remove it)

But you said this:

Do you suppose that you could spike the level of the Geas to shorten the "interval time" without shortening the time that you've allotted for the task to be complete?

If I self-geased with, "I promise officially that I will have a full report by next Wednesday at 10:00AM -- and not an hour later," and then swore a Geas/5 instead of a Geas/3 (treating the Geas as if you'd only given me an hour to work with for a seven day job), every hour that I kept you waiting would smack me with a point of dissonance, would it not?

That might be the answer I'm looking for. Marisol is in Greece. Curtis is in Columbus. Three hundred sixty five days after she left Columbus, she needs to be back. But say Marisol ran into some difficulties. A technical read of the rules means that all that happened is she gets a point of Dissonance and needs to show up in the next year...when it will go away. Yawn! No big deal particularly for a Geas/6!

A better ruling might be that it would take Marisol a day (with connections, time zones, and ground transport) to get from Greece to Columbus. So every DAY she chooses to not go after it comes due, she gets dinged with Dis!*

***

Regarding the table in the Core Book. The table in Lilith is much more complete. The risk reward factor makes things nicer.

For example: That phone call that Curtis is avoiding. If he KNEW that the call would likely result in him being 'volunteered' for a frontal assault on a tether of David, it would be a much larger Geas then that /1. An unknowing Curtis could be induced to call with a Geas/1.

Geases are tricky things...

***

One last request: I need help pricing out that Geas. Marisol has information regarding the tethers of Columbus. She swore the guy who kept her safe that she would update his information with an annual visit. The city would be more dangerous then most citiesfor her, but not egregiously so, though her research would take more then a day and would involve getting near Heavenly and Infernal tethers.

What would be the initial cost?

How long would it last?


*Interestingly, if she was a human from the 19th century, she might only get hit with body hits for every two months she doesn't arrive.

[Orlin]

Regarding the table in the Core Book. The table in Lilith is much more complete. The risk reward factor makes things nicer.

Yeah, but I didn't want to over-complicate my already-needlessly-complicated post.

One last request: I need help pricing out that Geas. Marisol has information regarding the tethers of Columbus. She swore the guy who kept her safe that she would update his information with an annual visit. The city would be more dangerous then most citiesfor her, but not egregiously so, though her research would take more then a day and would involve getting near Heavenly and Infernal tethers.

This is really tough. I don't think you can go higher than Geas/6, but there are certainly ways to use Superiors: Lilith to rack up a Geas/10. Maybe I need to re-read the whole section on Geases, but does it say anything about what happens when the conditions of your Geas rack up beyond 6 levels?

If not, here are a couple of viable solutions...

What would be the initial cost?

If you rule that gathering all of the information on the Tethers will take her one week (and you said more than a day), that starts us off at Geas/3. If you rule that she's liable to do a full month of covert operations in the year, you could bump it to a Geas/4.

If you're following Superiors: Lilith pp. 38, work that is considered "hard" (because after all, there is the possibility that the Game or the Angels can come knocking on Marisol's door for this favor), you could give it a +2. That gives you a Geas/5 with a one-week interval and one week of hard work, or a Geas/6 with a one-month interval and a full month of covert operations and meticulously detailed reports scattered across the year.

If you want to bump up the interval (as per that on-the-fly house rule that I suggested) from one week to one day, you could say it's Geas/6, and Marisol's "dissonance interval" is 24 hours. To do this, you'd have to rule that she would only need to put in about a week of work -- otherwise, you'd technically be priced for a Geas/7.

I suppose you could also purchase it in the form of two separate Geases? A single Geas/5 (spend a month collecting reports) and a second Geas/2 (turn the report in on this day, at this place, at this time?) This would rack up one dissonance per day if she failed to turn in the report, and an additional one dissonance every month that she didn't go back to take surveilance of the Tethers, check up and compile information until the report was complete.

How long would it last?

This is the really tricky part. To be perfectly honest, I think a Lilim would have to be particularly daft (or REALLY under a barrel!) to swear to meet him every year.

Go back to the way the Geas was worded. Is there anything that says she can't come back to him with the same information every year? Is there any way she can wriggle out? How many previous Geases did she owe him? You might count every additional meeting as a Geas/6 (since it's essentially the same task, with the same stipulations) and rule that after two or three years, all of the favors Marisol owed Curtis had worn off.

Alternatively, Marisol could have geased herself twice, with the second Geas being something akin to "I swear by my nature that I shall invoke this Geas again when next we meet." Or, alternatively, "every time we meet, until you are satisfied with the information." In either case, the second Geas would be equal to the level of the first.

With the latter option, as soon as he tells her something along the lines of "Good job," she could technically say, "Thanks!" and walk off without giving him anymore promises. With the former, she would be forced to provide him with two reports, once a year for the next two years, and then they would have to renegotiate their deal.

I hope she's getting something worthwhile for this!

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by JCD

A better ruling might be that it would take Marisol a day (with connections, time zones, and ground transport) to get from Greece to Columbus. So every DAY she chooses to not go after it comes due, she gets dinged with Dis!*

*Interestingly, if she was a human from the 19th century, she might only get hit with body hits for every two months she doesn't arrive.

So a year to do this, then every day (or 2 month) thereafter -- since that's what'd it'd take to get there? That's not a bad interpretation.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

So a year to do this, then every day (or 2 month) thereafter -- since that's what'd it'd take to get there? That's not a bad interpretation.

But the question remains. Assume that Curtis has a Geas/6 (self sworn) on Marisol. She is a bit of a tether expert (okay, a LOT). She can observe them from a distance.

She promised to visit him in Columbus and update his current information. She promised to visit every year.

Now, how many visits would a geas/6 cover? One year? Three?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by JCD

But the question remains. Assume that Curtis has a Geas/6 (self sworn) on Marisol. She is a bit of a tether expert (okay, a LOT). She can observe them from a distance.

She promised to visit him in Columbus and update his current information. She promised to visit every year.

Now, how many visits would a geas/6 cover? One year? Three?

This is why Lilim are very careful with wording. If she said "every year," I'd assume that meant "every year that you are there and I am alive," with a possible unspoken escape clause if an entire year passes that the target isn't Columbus to visit. A bargain at Geas/6!

Beyond that, I guess you could retcon that there was some time limit, and that raises the question of what would be an arbitrary number of years to match for a Geas/6. I guess I'd say you should decide what it would be to visit once in a year and calculate from there (if it's normally a Geas/2 for one visit, then you're getting 3 visits).

EDIT: Just occurred to me it's a self-imposed Geas the Lilim expects to re-impose each time it's fulfilled, the level may change depending on what's going on in her life. If she's on the run from the Game and can't afford to talk to known associates for a while, you may be talking Geas/6 for just one visit. If it's easy enough for her to make a day trip once a year, I'd go Geas/3 or so offhand, but the Lilith supplement probably has better info on what a day-long commitment (with some nominal personal risk) should cost.

[Archangel Beth]

*points upwards* Pretty much what Jason just said there, yup. If you make some kind of open-ended promise, you're pretty much opening yourself up to a constantly renewing Geas (though the level of it may indeed change depending on the situation). As a GM, I would probably _tell the Lilim's player this_ -- in much the same way I'd tell a Lilim's player, when the Lilim is calling a random Geas in, "You can't ask for that much; the Geas will not support it."