Beats Suck(?)

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

The sample hero isn't well optimized to take advantage of beats. If you drop his DX to 12, increase his ST to 16, and change his weapon skill to DX+2, then his Feint stays at 18 but his Beat goes to 20.

We already know that Beats are good if you're strong, that's not the point of this thread. The point is that a character who is equally competent at both Beat and Feint, the clear choice is Feint, or so it seems to me. I want them to be equally valid tactical choices, and I want to know if that means I need to make a house rule or not.

[vsh]

You're right, Beat is the choice of Tough guys, but Beats can still be good for everyone.
First, Beat cannot rise opponent's defense score like Feint can. Second, your friends can benefit from your Beats.
Character and situation described is optimal for Feint, not Beat. If the combat is two vs. two guys, you can Beat the hell out of Tough guy and your friend can finish him.

[Victor Maxus]

I have a player whose character, by design, is really big, by not very skilled (compared to other heroes that is). He is 17 strength, and only a 12 skill, with nothing in his feint. (He has no formal training as a fighter, he is justa big guy, not too smart, who loves animals, who, over time, self taught how to swing a big, wooden club; two handed axe/mace). For him, a beat is an excellent option. This is what it was created for, to give some one like this, with a character concept, a means by which to break through the defenses of others with out having to rely on skill or dex.

[DouglasCole]

Just to belabor the obvious, what kendo/kenjutsu and fencing call a 'beat' is a DX-based Feint or Deceptive attack, not a GURPS Beat.

In GURPS, a Beat is a frackin' SMASH. It's designed, I think, for ST15+, often 20-30, with Ogres and Giants in mind.

(I have done both fencing and still do hwarang kumtoogi and bongtoogi; these moves are definitely DX-based)

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Just to belabor the obvious, what kendo/kenjutsu and fencing call a 'beat' is a DX-based Feint or Deceptive attack, not a GURPS Beat. ...

Personally, I would say in fencing a beat is not necessarily a feint or a deceptive attack, though it may be used to initiate such. That is to say, you may feint by beating, or your beat may be real.

In the basic form beat where it is not an attempt to misdirect the opponent, it's really an attack on the weapon to drive it out of the way.

Accordingly to me the only significant flaw of the GURPS model is requiring the set-up.

[Bruno]

I'd say I'd allow a perk to remove the set-up :)

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Bruno

That might be desirable, but you're also describing a very complex system with a large number of variables. Sorting out a system like that is difficult, and it may not be possible to solve it for the desired result.

Among other things, ST costs half as much as IQ and DX and is already very valuable in combat.

The campaign I have in mind will really embrace tactical complexity, so the fact that rebalancing beat and feint will introduce a slew of choices for players is a feature in this case, not a bug.

I am concerned about your second statement there, though, which is why I'm interested in hearing from people who have playtested their proposed changes.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Personally, I would say in fencing a beat is not necessarily a feint or a deceptive attack, though it may be used to initiate such. That is to say, you may feint by beating, or your beat may be real.

In the basic form beat where it is not an attempt to misdirect the opponent, it's really an attack on the weapon to drive it out of the way.

Accordingly to me the only significant flaw of the GURPS model is requiring the set-up.

That kinda bugs me too. On the other hand, the set-up means you're not vulnerable to a Beat unless you let blades touch: If you don't attack him with your blade, or you don't parry his blade with your own, you can't be Beaten. That's kinda neat.

But it does result in wierdness like "I attack/you attack/I beat/you attack/I attack and penetrate your defense"

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

But it does result in wierdness like "I attack/you attack/I beat/you attack/I attack and penetrate your defense"

You can always Rapid Strike with a Beat and Attack, or do a Dual Weapon Beat and Attack, or go insane and do an AoA:Dual Beat and Attack.

[MrBackman]

Can someone point me to the 'beat' rule in the 4e books? Or is it in Martial arts?

[Victor Maxus]

I think it is found in the martial arts.