Beats Suck(?)

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I can only see two (possibly three) circumstances where Beat is useful. First, you're really really strong.

It shouldn't be a surprise that Beat is better for stronger characters than for others. Consider the same scenarios but with the big buy doing the beats. It's an option for characters who's ST beats out their DX.

Second, you need to supply someone else with a bonus against your mutual opponent's defense. Given that a Beat applies to the defense against anyone, one guy can Beat an opponent to set-up his foe for his ally.

Note also that in this case, the beat applies to both his allies' attack, as well as his own. That can be a huge deal.

I also houserule (pretty sure it's a houserule) that beats apply both to defense and offense with that weapon. It seems odd that you could physically force a weapon away to the point that it's harder to defend with it, but posing no impediment to attacking with it.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

I also houserule (pretty sure it's a houserule) that beats apply both to defense and offense with that weapon. It seems odd that you could physically force a weapon away to the point that it's harder to defend with it, but posing no impediment to attacking with it.

That seems really odd to me too, and this is one of the house rules I'm considering. How is it working out for you? I looks to me like it would become a useful trick in anyone's arsenal at that point (though superior for stronger characters, naturally).

[Kilo]

It seems odd that you could physically force a weapon away to the point that it's harder to defend with it, but posing no impediment to attacking with it.

Think of it this way, when you go to attack someone, say swinging a sword at them, what's the first thing you do? Bring the weapon back to a position to swing it and get some momentum in the blade. So if you knock my weapon to the side, it's right where I want to put it to hit you anyway. But if I want to parry with that weapon, I have to bring it all the way back between you and I. Hence, harder to parry, not to attack.

However, thrusts would be harder, since I'd have to realign my sword properly to thrust it into yer gullet.

[mlangsdorf]

The sample hero isn't well optimized to take advantage of beats. If you drop his DX to 12, increase his ST to 16, and change his weapon skill to DX+2, then his Feint stays at 18 but his Beat goes to 20.

In my DF game, monsters like Ogres (ST22, DX12, weapon skill 15) can't feint through the PCs' defenses, but they can certainly use Beats to knock weapons away.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

The sample hero isn't well optimized to take advantage of beats. If you drop his DX to 12, increase his ST to 16, and change his weapon skill to DX+2, then his Feint stays at 18 but his Beat goes to 20.

We already know that Beats are good if you're strong, that's not the point of this thread. The point is that a character who is equally competent at both Beat and Feint, the clear choice is Feint, or so it seems to me. I want them to be equally valid tactical choices, and I want to know if that means I need to make a house rule or not.

[vsh]

You're right, Beat is the choice of Tough guys, but Beats can still be good for everyone.
First, Beat cannot rise opponent's defense score like Feint can. Second, your friends can benefit from your Beats.
Character and situation described is optimal for Feint, not Beat. If the combat is two vs. two guys, you can Beat the hell out of Tough guy and your friend can finish him.

[Victor Maxus]

I have a player whose character, by design, is really big, by not very skilled (compared to other heroes that is). He is 17 strength, and only a 12 skill, with nothing in his feint. (He has no formal training as a fighter, he is justa big guy, not too smart, who loves animals, who, over time, self taught how to swing a big, wooden club; two handed axe/mace). For him, a beat is an excellent option. This is what it was created for, to give some one like this, with a character concept, a means by which to break through the defenses of others with out having to rely on skill or dex.

[DouglasCole]

Just to belabor the obvious, what kendo/kenjutsu and fencing call a 'beat' is a DX-based Feint or Deceptive attack, not a GURPS Beat.

In GURPS, a Beat is a frackin' SMASH. It's designed, I think, for ST15+, often 20-30, with Ogres and Giants in mind.

(I have done both fencing and still do hwarang kumtoogi and bongtoogi; these moves are definitely DX-based)

[MrBackman]

Can someone point me to the 'beat' rule in the 4e books? Or is it in Martial arts?

[Victor Maxus]

I think it is found in the martial arts.