[Spaceships] Armor Density

[Langy]

Anthony's method should work fine. The only reason ships are restricted to 20 locations is due to the effect ship mass has upon performance (which is mostly fixed adequately by modifying performance by the total number of systems used, except for fuel tanks, which would need to be reworked a bit more) and for reasons based upon volume. If you alter the ship performance based upon total number of modules, you've got a system that needs 20 systems for volume-based reasons (such as number of people that can fit in a hull section or the hit location rules), not mass.

You could expand it so that different systems took up different amounts of volume slots while taking up one mass slot. Armor modules would take up 1 mass slot and 0 volume slots, habitats might take up one mass slot and two volume slots, etc.

For fuel tanks, the fuel tank multiplier would need to be based upon the actual fraction of fuel tanks to total mass slots used. Everything else should work fine.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Langy

Anthony's method should work fine. The only reason ships are restricted to 20 locations is due to the effect ship mass has upon performance (which is mostly fixed adequately by modifying performance by the total number of systems used, except for fuel tanks, which would need to be reworked a bit more) and for reasons based upon volume. If you alter the ship performance based upon total number of modules, you've got a system that needs 20 systems for volume-based reasons (such as number of people that can fit in a hull section or the hit location rules), not mass.

That way works, but is a completely different design system from Spaceships. It's similar to how it was done with the various 3e modular vehicle design systems. A hull of a given size has a given number of spaces, and you calculate mass and performance last.

The problem I see with this idea is one that haunted all of the 3e systems: It's difficult to build a vehicle with a target performance. Basing everything on same-mass modules means that each module give a certain performance (3G for an engine, 12 mps dV for a fuel tank), rather than having to calculate performance at the end.

[Ulzgoroth]

Partitioning spaceships into a different number of systems breaks the Spaceships damage system.

Everything else you can work around if you're willing to do the math, but how do you deal with that?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Partitioning spaceships into a different number of systems breaks the Spaceships damage system.

Everything else you can work around if you're willing to do the math, but how do you deal with that?

By not assigning damage locations to extra armor?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

By not assigning damage locations to extra armor?

Er...that may make something coherent, but only makes any sense once you completely discard the meaning of Systems in the Spaceships mechanics.

[dynaman]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Er...that may make something coherent, but only makes any sense once you completely discard the meaning of Systems in the Spaceships mechanics.

"Hits" on armor was kinda dodgy to begin with, ignoring it is a really good idea. Armor is something you penetrate in order to get to the important bits inside, only something like a matter disintigration beam should have any effect on armor - other then going through it or being stopped by it.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Partitioning spaceships into a different number of systems breaks the Spaceships damage system.

Everything else you can work around if you're willing to do the math, but how do you deal with that?

As Anthony said, by not assigning armor to the damage system (as it should be). The damage system is based on the assumption that all systems have the same volume. If you use the assumption that armor takes up no volume (which is what this alternative system is based upon), then there's no problem.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Langy

As Anthony said, by not assigning armor to the damage system (as it should be). The damage system is based on the assumption that all systems have the same volume. If you use the assumption that armor takes up no volume (which is what this alternative system is based upon), then there's no problem.

Emphasis mine.

No, that's just not true. I've already quoted, from the book, where it specifically states that the systems do not take volume into account. The damage system only takes mass into account not volume.

If your new system doesn't take mass into account and only works on volume, then you'll be fine, but don't go saying that the original system takes volume into account when the book specifically states it does not.

There's no reason you couldn't build one based on Volume, however, you'd have to go back and figure out how large each system is, then rebuild the entire system by adding a mass component to keep track of, and you'd still be limited to 20 systems as each one would then be 5% of the total volume.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Emphasis mine.

No, that's just not true. I've already quoted, from the book, where it specifically states that the systems do not take volume into account. The damage system only takes mass into account not volume.

The damage system assumes equal hit probability on all components. That only makes sense if all components have equal volume (actually, equal exposed area). Basically, your quote, while accurate, is not true -- the actual behavior of Spaceships is inconsistent with the stated design.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The damage system assumes equal hit probability on all components. That only makes sense if all components have equal volume (actually, equal exposed area). Basically, your quote, while accurate, is not true -- the actual behavior of Spaceships is inconsistent with the stated design.

So, what you're saying here is accurate...but the entire point of the design system is simplicity and fun, fast play.

It's explicitly said, and all performance is calculated, based on the assumption of 20 equal-mass slices.

The targeting probabilities is a side effect of wanting to use d6 dice mechanics, and was clearly done for ease of rules and play.

It's a mass-based system, with some kludges there for purposes of fun.