Gun Safety Rules

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

So, for GURPS, you can have some guy with about 8 points in Guns still make a mistake (see #2 above.)

Firstly, very few real life shooters can justify 8 points (1600 hours of instruction, or 6400 of OJT). Secondly this is easily the result of a critical failure.

[HANS]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think what Doug is saying that a perk will get you immunity to negligent discharges even if you roll a critical failure.

Yeah, sorry, my post wasn't really meant as a reply to Doug anyway. We mustn't mix this up, though:

1. Basic gun safety rules are part of Guns. Knowledge of the skill implies that you know how to safely handle the things, but of course you can still make mistakes.
2. SOP (Gun Safety Fanatic) means you go above and beyond, always making sure you adhere to the rules, effectively preventing you from making mistakes.
3. Pants Positive Safety (which is of course cinematic) means you habitually break the rules but don't get penalised for it.

My main concern is that there is no

0. SOP (Gun Safety Rules). Unless you have this, you don't know the safety rules and often make mistakes that get you or other people hurt.

There are two game-immanent reasons for this:

One, this really is part of Guns skill, and most examples of people breaking the rules is because they don't have the skill (default), they roll bad, or they have some relevant disadvantage.
Two, if there really were such a perk, then the majority of shooters, certainly those that people like to play as PCs (ie, good shooters with sound tactics etc), would be required to have this perk, which means they'd have one less point for other stuff, especially other perks that are actually useful.

Cheers

HANS

[Kromm]

GURPS broadly assumes that any skill in which you have points was studied – at school, under a master, or at least from good books – rather than learned through trial and error. For instance, anbody with Chemistry has basic chemical safety, anybody with Driving has his license and passed the safety exam, and anybody with Guns has taken and passed a safety course. Nobody needs a perk except when he can do something that he knows better than to do without having to suffer the consequences of that action (e.g., Pants-Positive Safety).

Not knowing about basic safety for a skill is a quirk. I would say that the net effect of this quirk is that you roll at default for safety checks. Thus, a trial-and-error driver with such a quirk might have DX 12, IQ 10, and Driving-13, but roll at IQ-5 (5 or less!) if the GM wants to see whether he did something dumb, like leave his car stopped in neutral on a hill without the parking break on. Likewise, a trial-and-error shooter might have DX 12, IQ, 10, and Guns-13, but roll at IQ-4 (6 or less) to avoid idiocy like walking patrol with a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked, and a finger on the trigger.

When a science or a piece of technology is first developed, just about everybody might have this problem! I suspect that most pilots in the Wright era had it for Piloting, for instance.

And yeah, I consider it absolutely legit to let a character get Guns "for free" by taking Guns (E) DX [1] and "Guns accident waiting to happen" [-1]. He fires guns at DX in combat, but rolls DX-4 or IQ-4 most of the rest of the time to avoid shooting himself or his allies. Of course, the GM should only allow this if he plans to enforce the rules for safe firearms handling, and the GM is well within his rights to be aggressive about asking for safety checks from anybody who gets points for such a quirk.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

I think that would be reasonable, as long as it's phrased to make it clear why it's worth the point. This needs justification to be given an extra cost, after all. Bundling in some minor, related benefits would help. Something like this might work:

SOP (Gun Safety Fanatic)

You never stop thinking about firearm accidents. You always know where your barrel is pointing, you never let the hammer slip, you're especially mindful not to snag your trigger on clothing, etc. In game, no firearm you're using will ever discharge accidentally, even on a critical failure. As you've specifically practiced how to quickly and safely lower a hammer and thumb a safety, you may do either as a free action, no roll required; see Conditions of Readiness (Tactical Shooting, p. 8) for more.

The last bit overlaps with Lightning Fingers, but it also follows logically from the first bit. That is, the consequence of dropping a hammer too quickly is an accidental discharge -- so if you're immune to that, your character should be able to drop the hammer as fast as he likes! (PS: This paragraph will make a lot more sense once y'all have read Tactical Shooting, sorry!)

Not sure that'd be enough to make it a desirable perk, perhaps add in, +1 Reaction from other shooters who appreciate your extra care and never being flagged by you.

[Ketsuban]

Kromm (as always) makes a lot of sense.

I can't help but wonder, though... given two people who've never held a firearm before, if one of them has received the safety lecture and comprehends the Rules enough to make a valid attempt at being safe even if he can't necessarily recite them from memory doesn't he stand an improved chance of not shooting his own balls off versus the other guy?

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Ketsuban

Kromm (as always) makes a lot of sense.

I can't help but wonder, though... given two people who've never held a firearm before, if one of them has received the safety lecture and comprehends the Rules enough to make a valid attempt at being safe even if he can't necessarily recite them from memory doesn't he stand an improved chance of not shooting his own balls off versus the other guy?

Meh, it takes practice handling guns. "Don't shoot your balls off" is not really instructions most people need to be given, yet some people still manage to do it.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Meh, it takes practice handling guns. "Don't shoot your balls off" is not really instructions most people need to be given, yet some people still manage to do it.

I was a vehicle commander on a ride along mission with some Army dudes (from a supposedly "elite" unit that I shall not name) that were the advanced party for the unit that was Relief-In-Place-ing us. When we returned to base, crossed the wire, and had to Unload/Show Clear, an Army Captain proceeded to clear his pistol by putting the barrel against his chest SAPI plate and racking the slide!

[Inquisitive Raven]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I was a vehicle commander on a ride along mission with some Army dudes (from a supposedly "elite" unit that I shall not name) that were the advanced party for the unit that was Relief-In-Place-ing us. When we returned to base, crossed the wire, and had to Unload/Show Clear, an Army Captain proceeded to clear his pistol by putting the barrel against his chestplate and racking the slide!

He what? I've never fired a gun in my life and I know better than that. Then again, there's overlap between gun safety rules and archery safety rules, and I've pretty much internalized the latter. I've also had a gun safety (well, hunting safety) course.

BTW, I am very glad that my local Wal-Mart no longer carries firearms. I'm convinced that the salescritter I dealt with did not merely lack the Guns skill, but had Incompetence: Guns. He kept waving the gun he was showing us around in a potentially hazardous manner even after we pointed out what he was doing wrong.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I was a vehicle commander on a ride along mission with some Army dudes (from a supposedly "elite" unit that I shall not name) that were the advanced party for the unit that was Relief-In-Place-ing us. When we returned to base, crossed the wire, and had to Unload/Show Clear, an Army Captain proceeded to clear his pistol by putting the barrel against his chest SAPI plate and racking the slide!

I met a lot of people in supposedly elite Army units that behaved in manners that blew my friggen' mind.

Sometimes I really do wonder whether Marines are the only people to be trained specifically to do what they're friggen' told instead of acting like Billy Bad***.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by HANS

Definitely Guns. People who "learn" shooting as drug dealers almost invariably shoot at default skill.

Cheers

HANS

Yes, like holding your pistol sideways.