Low-Tech: Magic?

[Greg 1]

Not all mythology. My interest is in magic, as something actually used by humans in the real world.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Not all mythology. My interest is in magic, as something actually used by humans in the real world.

Sorry to be the bad news carrier, but probably there aren't any real magic in our world. If you think there is, James Randi is willing to give you a million bucks if you proves it.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Sorry to be the bad news carrier, but probably there aren't any real magic in our world. If you think there is, James Randi is willing to give you a million bucks if you proves it.

I believe he means just the beliefs, the way people act on those beliefs, and what actually happens when those beliefs hit reality.

As an example, we might say that a particular Norse pagan belief in "battle frenzy" meant that the disciples of this magical thinking could will themselves into a GURPS Berserker state.

One could then say that Norse shamans knew how to trigger that state and could use it to affect dying warriors and temporarily pull them out of a coma, or similar death spiral, which would then necessitate new HT rolls which might keep the wounded warriors from spiraling down into death.

In this situation we'd give the Shaman a Herb Lore roll at skill -4 to trigger Berserk in a dying warrior in a coma, the warrior would then get a roll at HT+4 to snap out of his coma for success seconds, and then have to make a normal HT roll to see if he remains conscious and alive.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I believe he means just the beliefs, the way people act on those beliefs, and what actually happens when those beliefs hit reality.

As an example, we might say that a particular Norse pagan belief in "battle frenzy" meant that the disciples of this magical thinking could will themselves into a GURPS Berserker state.

One could then say that Norse shamans knew how to trigger that state and could use it to affect dying warriors and temporarily pull them out of a coma, or similar death spiral, which would then necessitate new HT rolls which might keep the wounded warriors from spiraling down into death.

In this situation we'd give the Shaman a Herb Lore roll at skill -4 to trigger Berserk in a dying warrior in a coma, the warrior would then get a roll at HT+4 to snap out of his coma for success seconds, and then have to make a normal HT roll to see if he remains conscious and alive.

By my estimation, even that is really stretching the "power" of spiritual beliefs. A more likely occurrence would be a warrior, believing himself to be a berserker, charges naked into the fray, to be promptly skewered by his opponents' spear and dying in cold agony.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

By my estimation, even that is really stretching the "power" of spiritual beliefs. A more likely occurrence would be a warrior, believing himself to be a berserker, charges naked into the fray, to be promptly skewered by his opponents' spear and dying in cold agony.

You can do a lot with psychosomatic effects, Berserk itself is just a psychosomatic effect, so having 'magic' induce such effects would be in line with the base effect.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I believe he means just the beliefs, the way people act on those beliefs, and what actually happens when those beliefs hit reality.

Indeed! Magic may be a dud technology, but as an element of human civilization, it is amazing.

Even if I'm using a setting where magic works, knowing more about real magicians would be helpful.

(BTW, I don't particularly care if the book is classed as "Low-Tech" or not, if it covers what interests me)

[Gudiomen]

I suggest anthropology then, there are several authors that adress magical rituals and practices. Marcel Mauss has an anthropological theory on magic, if memory serves me. Authors of this period did a lot of investigation. Modern magic with traditional roots like Voodoo and Umbanda (brazilian version). Kardecists employ psychic healing techniques that are pretty much what we call "magic".

GURPS Cabal (3e), I'm told, and GURPS (3e) Voodoo have a lot of references to real world magic, as does GURPS Thaumatology (4e). But sometimes it's hard to tell what's real-world reference and what's game material.

In the real world most of this can probably be explained by the placebo and nocebo* effects.

*one example of this was the aborigine punishment of having a knee pierced by a "spiritual" spear, with the punished limping across the desert from the belief that his knee was pierced by the invisible spear. So hostile "magic" is possible too.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

In the real world most of this can probably be explained by the placebo and nocebo* effects.

*one example of this was the aborigine punishment of having a knee pierced by a "spiritual" spear, with the punished limping across the desert from the belief that his knee was pierced by the invisible spear. So hostile "magic" is possible too.

Yeah, nocebo is amazing, just tell someone what the side-effects of x-medication is and watch them start developing those side-effects, this is especially telling when you read them the wrong side-effects.

[NorphTehDwarf]

I hate to say it, but I'm not sure there's enough crunch in real-world magic to tie together a GURPS book, and maybe not even enough for a PDF.

I find the subject fascinating myself, though.

Most religious/magical tasks could be described by a number of GURPS skills. Aside from the obvious like Theology and Religious Ritual, I'd say that a practitioner of witchcraft or religion may have any one of the following skills:
Esoteric Medicine, Pharmacy (especially herbal), Psychology, Fortune-Telling, Body Language, Brainwashing, Acting, Artist, Astronomy, Autohypnosis, Meditation, Dreaming (the non-supernatural parts of the skill), Fast-Talk, Hypnotism, Performance, Group Performance, Musical Instrument, Singing, Leadership, Law, Literature (Possibly with an oral tradition specialization in preliterate cultures), Makeup and/or Disguise (for traditions in which practitioners dress up in elaborate costumes), Merchant (for cultures in which the practitioner is just another professional doing a job, albeit an esoteric one), Mimicry, Naturalist, Navigation (for seafaring cultures, probably), Occultism, Panhandling, Physician, Poetry, Poisons, Public Speaking, Teaching, Propaganda, Savoir-Faire, Stage Combat, Ventriloquism, and Writing.



And more, of course. It's important to note that the practitioner probably won't think of a lot of these skills by their GURPS names. An abbot likely won't think of the endless repetitions of chanting and fasting and suchlike as Brainwashing, but the monastic life certainly inspires a certain mindset, and men such as Francis of Assisi and whoever founded the Jesuits were using it when they organized their orders were certainly using that skill, although perhaps at default. Similarly the azande oracle board was influenced by the user's understanding of a situation, and its use was influenced by the answers of the person commissioning the divination; this falls under either Psychology, Body Language, or Fortune-Telling or possibly a mix of the three, but the oracle board practitioner and client are both convinced that they are consulting with a spirit.

Another thing to remember is the mindset of a magic practitioner. If a given working didn't work, then the practitioner did it wrong, or the spirits weren't willing, or someone else opposed the work strongly enough that nothing happened. The basic idea is that barring any interfering conditions, magic will always work.

This is all based on an anthropology course I took like two years ago, though.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by NorphTehDwarf

It's important to note that the practitioner probably won't think of a lot of these skills by their GURPS names.

That's a good point. I agree with it very much. An Indian Shaman wouldn't understand what do you mean by describing him as an "occultist", or as having the Occultism skill. Likewise, a Taoist sage would look at you with a really weird expression if you're telling him that he has the skill Theology (Taoism).

Originally Posted by NorphTehDwarf

An abbot likely won't think of the endless repetitions of chanting and fasting and suchlike as Brainwashing

That is a life of concentration.

If you want to talk about brainwashing, what's about watching TV? You see, is very easy to be controversial.

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Kardecists employ psychic healing techniques that are pretty much what we call "magic".

All that derives from Allan Kardec isn't but Spiritualism, an exclusively modern creation weirdly linked to discarded scientific theories for achieving what is often called "a transposed materialism". I mean, that isn't representative of any "Low-Tech Magic".

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

*one example of this was the aborigine punishment of having a knee pierced by a "spiritual" spear, with the punished limping across the desert from the belief that his knee was pierced by the invisible spear. So hostile "magic" is possible too.

It's extremely easy to misunderstand these things. I can't be sure about this specific example, but there is the possibility of that being a kind of atonement ritual: and rituals needs to be "role played", sometimes even to uncomfortable extremes. If not, they are regarded as invalid. The symbolic items often used in rituals are material ones, but occasionally there are "invisible items" in play with the purpose serving as a vehicle of psychic or spiritual elements, too.