Can you learn Empathy?

[Edges]

The hearing and sight limitations aside, Body Language seems to do everything Detect lies can do and more*. Yet it's an easier skill to learn. Also, being lied to on the phone or over the radio is so much less common in RPGs than being lied to in person (particularly at low TLs). Detect Lies seem like it would rarely be worth it. I had always countered this by saying that Body Language's lie detection ability was more vague than that of Detect Lies. But now Kromm seems to say otherwise. I can understand eavesdropping through a door or while pretending not to look (like w/Observation) but these times when Detect Lies would be needed still seem pretty rare.

Is Body Language meant to be so good?

*Kromm's "illustration" for Detect Lies, for instance, could have been in the Body Language listing as well but the revers is not true.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Edges

Is Body Language meant to be so good?

*Kromm's "illustration" for Detect Lies, for instance, could have been in the Body Language listing as well but the revers is not true.

Body Language has more penalties and fewer bonuses. For example, Empathy doesn't boost it.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Body Language has more penalties and fewer bonuses. For example, Empathy doesn't boost it.

I noticed that. Do you have more examples?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Edges

I noticed that. Do you have more examples?

Detect Lies isn't penalised by the person wearing enveloping clothing or masks. Heck, you'd get a Body Language penalty just from interviewing someone on botox.

[Kromm]

Yeah, Body Language rarely works at full skill unless you always meet people naked under bright lights. Clothes, darkness, a strategically held briefcase, etc. are all it takes for the skill to become merely so-so. In my secret-agent game, Detect Lies – nearly always at +3 for Empathy and with Smooth Operator bonuses – is the overwhelming favorite not just for the bonuses, but for the lack of penalties. And setting aside the bonus/penalty issue, spies listen to conversations via wiretaps and bugs all the time, and often talk to mysterious tipsters on the phone . . .

[David Johnston2]

In fact I was converting the M&M module "Time of Crisis", and believe you me, Detect Lies boosted by Empathy would be totally worth it by comparison with Body Language what with the apes, and the masks.

[panton41]

Where might Sociology fall into the mix? I've always considered it more or less "psychology applied to large groups of people" which has been proved many times isn't the same as when psychology is applied to individuals or even small groups. (Of course where "small group" ends and "large group" begins is very vague and an apartment building might be considered a "small group" in one case where an equal population neighborhood might be "large" in another.)

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yeah, Body Language rarely works at full skill unless you always meet people naked under bright lights. Clothes, darkness, a strategically held briefcase, etc. are all it takes for the skill to become merely so-so. In my secret-agent game, Detect Lies – nearly always at +3 for Empathy and with Smooth Operator bonuses – is the overwhelming favorite not just for the bonuses, but for the lack of penalties. And setting aside the bonus/penalty issue, spies listen to conversations via wiretaps and bugs all the time, and often talk to mysterious tipsters on the phone . . .

Cool. I get it.

As an aside, secret agents with Empathy... sounds like an interesting game.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Edges

As an aside, secret agents with Empathy... sounds like an interesting game.

I often pimp the session-by-session recaps. If you prefer "What happened?" to "What dice rolls were made?" (I loathe the latter in campaign reiterations, and refuse to do it), then take a look. Cool is in the eye of the beholder.

But Empathy isn't a particularly odd ability for secret agents. Of course, you have to accept that it's "realistic" – and the rules say it is, so if I allow a 5'2", 90-lb. twig-girl to have ST 12, then I should allow Empathy. After that, it fits. It has nothing to do with being empathetic or even giving a darn about others. It's very specifically the trait of being a living, breathing lie detector and knowing how to second-guess others . . . incredibly useful to interrogators and intimidators of all stripes. What we tend to call "empathy" in the real world is some combination of Charitable, Pacifism, Selfless, and Sense of Duty, I suppose.