Area Attacks--Am I Missing Something?

[munin]

The Bombardment limitation (p. B111) will cause an area effect to attack some targets and not others. The Blockable limitation (p. P110) will allow Block or Parry active defenses. Resistible, DX (pp. B115, P105) will allow a DX roll to avoid the effect (without diving or retreating) -- Resistible, Dodge might be legal. Another way to build an "area effect" that can be dodged is to use Rapid Fire and require that the attack use the Spraying Fire mechanic (p. B409) to attack multiple hexes.

[Sdrolion]

Originally Posted by munin

The Bombardment limitation (p. B111) will cause an area effect to attack some targets and not others. The Blockable limitation (p. P110) will allow Block or Parry active defenses. Resistible, DX (pp. B115, P105) will allow a DX roll to avoid the effect (without diving or retreating) -- Resistible, Dodge might be legal. Another way to build an "area effect" that can be dodged is to use Rapid Fire and require that the attack use the Spraying Fire mechanic (p. B409) to attack multiple hexes.

I hadn't caught the Resistible (DX) limitation--that's an interesting option, though actually it'll tend to be worse for the AE than if you just allowed dodge, probably (but Resistable--Dodge might be interesting for that). If I'm reading right, it starts at -5 and for -5% and then you get another -5% for each +1...so no modifier would be -30%, right? Technically that's supposed to only be for Poison/Fatigue attacks, but I guess applying it for physical attacks with Dodge is somewhat valid, though -30% does seem a little high considering that similar limitations (Blockable and its further limitation to make it parryable) are nowhere near that value.

But yeah...it just seems odd to me that the attack by default is so unstoppable...normally you have to build on the attack's power with modifiers to make it particularly unstoppable (something I advise generally not allowing unless you're going for that kind of style), but with an AE attack, it's strong to begin with and you have to apply limiters (or require them, if you're the GM and worried about this) to reduce its problematic nature.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Sdrolion

But yeah...it just seems odd to me that the attack by default is so unstoppable...normally you have to build on the attack's power with modifiers to make it particularly unstoppable (something I advise generally not allowing unless you're going for that kind of style), but with an AE attack, it's strong to begin with and you have to apply limiters (or require them, if you're the GM and worried about this) to reduce its problematic nature.

Well, it's not unstoppable, it just requires either undependable circumstance or certain properties well outside the human norm to escape it.

I suspect there's some discount involved for the potential inconvenience of an area of effect. (AoE 2 yd radius + Dissipation does full damage in a 1 yd radius and is +0% net.)

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Sdrolion

But yeah...it just seems odd to me that the attack by default is so unstoppable...normally you have to build on the attack's power with modifiers to make it particularly unstoppable (something I advise generally not allowing unless you're going for that kind of style), but with an AE attack, it's strong to begin with and you have to apply limiters (or require them, if you're the GM and worried about this) to reduce its problematic nature.

Retreating and Diving for Cover should (realistically) be the only ways to escape an area attack anyway. In a cinematic campaign, I might allow something creative, like an Acrobatic dodge (or Flying Leap, etc) to try and get out of the area, or a Block to use a shield for partial cover, etc. Even in a realistic campaign, I'd allow "hitting the deck" to at least reduce damage -- Diving for Cover just to get to a prone position, effectively "covering" your front with the ground, and reducing your profile for frag damage. That's pretty much what they teach soldiers to do if they're getting shelled/bombed/etc where there's no cover ... and while it's not a perfect defense, and certainly doesn't save everyone who does it, it might be the best option available.

I agree with your point, though ... if your interpretations is correct, and it seems to me that it is, RAW AE either seems waaaay underpriced or waaaay overpowered.

EDIT: when you think about it, though, RAW AE isn't very realistic: damage that doesn't dissipate from the center, but does uniform damage through a set area, and simply "ends" at the border of the area. Most realistic area attacks are going to have some other modifier - Cone or Explosion, etc, which function by more realistic rules.

[Bruno]

Straight AE attacks are GREAT for smashing an area with Gogs Giant Foot ;)

Summoning your god to stomp on the opposition isn't very realistic, but it's a pretty straight forward Innate Attack - realistic effects aren't the majority use here, except with toxic attacks and possibly FP attacks.

* I can't remember the name of the orcish deity. It's a spell from Warhammer anyways - a big god goes stomping across the battlefield and anyone caught under his feet suffers the obvious consequences. Can be simulated by putting your 4 year old on the game table.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Bruno

* I can't remember the name of the orcish deity. It's a spell from Warhammer anyways - a big god goes stomping across the battlefield and anyone caught under his feet suffers the obvious consequences. Can be simulated by putting your 4 year old on the game table.

Gork or Mork. Either one. Both will do, if you have twins.

An AE isn't, really, a realistic attack. It's a comic book ability, or representing something very large hitting an area (fly swatters in that Vermin campaign).

[cccwebs]

* I can't remember the name of the orcish deity. It's a spell from Warhammer anyways - a big god goes stomping across the battlefield and anyone caught under his feet suffers the obvious consequences. Can be simulated by putting your 4 year old on the game table.

<em pulls out wife's copy of Warhammer Armies:Orcs & Goblins>
You're looking for Gork and Mork. Specifically, The Foot of Gork and Gork's Warpath.

[Sdrolion]

To be clear, I'm not looking at this from a realistic angle--I'm looking at it from a game playability one. Yeah--straight AE physical/energy damage attacks are not realistic (arguably, a poison cloud sort of thing is, though), and if you're building a realistic game you should basically just go with Explosion/Frags instead (if you even bother with building things as advans instead of using GURPS honestly-quite-good selection of existing explosives). The way that you could "realistically" dodge an AE attack is therefore not really a concern, since an AE attack really can't be said to exist in reality for the majority of attack types. Furthermore, what is "realistic" depends somewhat on what an AE attack means to you: the GURPS books use the "fills an area" interpretation, which means that, correct, it wouldn't be strictly realistic to allow someone to "dodge" it unless they could actually leave the area by doing so. However, another interpretation is just that the attack hits the area and attacks everyone in it with individual bolts/beams/etc. (just a multi-target attack defined by attack zone rather than number of shots), in which case a dodge is indeed very realistic. That said...that's pretty clearly not what the GURPS books are going for.

Anyway, just wanted to make sure I was indeed properly reading the rules and hadn't missed something, and it seems that I was reading it right.

For anyone interested: my opinion, in general, on this is that AE is overpowered for its price: the default meaning of AE should probably be more along the lines of the multi-target attack, above: it just attacks everything in the area with a single attack roll, and they get to defend as normal for a ranged innate attack. That, in my mind, is more than enough value for +50% per level. Then, if someone wants to do a "fills the area" type, that could raise the cost (I'd say at least +100%, but honestly, I could see going further if you're actually going to almost completely disable active defense with this thing--though it should still be lower than the full +300% for disables Active Defense, as there are indeed some types that work against it: cover, getting out of the area, and certain power-based defenses.).

I guess the main reason I have a problem with this, honestly, is that GURPS is a system in which one hit can massively change the course of the battle--it isn't like in some other systems, where you're likely going to be hit time and time again and still be able to go on fighting perfectly well (though I'm sure there are GURPS character builds that can do that, likely via high DR or using DR to represent more HP, or using Injury Tolerance). And that's a strength of GURPS, to me, by the way. But this--which basically guarantees a hit and doesn't cost so much that it's prohibitive to mess with it--doesn't really play nice with that idea. It's relatively easy to create a fairly low-CP cost attack with this that is astonishingly lethal to any active defense-focused character build (your stereotypical fantasy martial artist, expert swordsman, acrobatic thief, ninja, etc.).

This resonates a little more with me, I guess, because in our game 3 out of the 4 player characters are low-DR, active-defense focused characters...and we frequently run into enemies of the same type. So, basically, this attack would probably be massive death to the majority of the combatants out there.

Anyway, I've got some solutions for the game that I'll be looking over (likely just using the multi-target attack version above unless another modifier such as Respiratory Agent, which has its own specified reasonably common defense, is also used--that way we can still allow AE attacks that aren't "explosions," but they aren't superlethal), but wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something that would negate any need to modify/exclude this power first.

[roguebfl]

The Reason it is cheaper the +300% Cosmic, is it hits every thing in the area wither you want to or not, the the very least it is extensive coloratura property damage, if not allies or innocents, All taking the full damage that you're tring to hit your target with.

where the Cosmic one only the target is getting hit by the precision shot, unless less you over penetrate.

[Black Leviathan]

A 2-yrd AOE rarely gets more than one enemy, it's 50% more for a tough to dodge effect. But also a straight AOE effect rather than an explosive attack would be pretty rare.