What is a combat skill for MA: Style Perks

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

IAlso, do optional skills count as skills for the style itself, or is it only the skills listed in the top part of the style description?

I'd say that if you learned it from the same sources you are learning the style perk from, it counts toward prerequisites for the perk.

Yes this does mean that two characters, both students of the style, and with identical point and skill distributions, might differ in whether or not they qualify for a style perk depending on their history. I don't see that as an additional problem (over and above my objections to the entire count the points prerequisites concept) though.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'd say that if you learned it from the same sources you are learning the style perk from, it counts toward prerequisites for the perk.

Yes this does mean that two characters, both students of the style, and with identical point and skill distributions, might differ in whether or not they qualify for a style perk depending on their history. I don't see that as an additional problem (over and above my objections to the entire count the points prerequisites concept) though.

Hmmm so I suppose a GM would decide on a case by case basis. I guess that would also mean you would need to notate that somewhere on the character itself. That probably works well enough for gov't work. ^_^

Any guess why skills for Magical Styles don't add to points in the style? That one has been bugging me a bit. I know I can hand waive it I am just curious about the reasoning behind it.

Ghostdancer

[RobKamm]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I don't see that as an additional problem (over and above my objections to the entire count the points prerequisites concept) though.

Okay, I'll bite. I don't recall having heard an objection to that idea. Have you spelled out your objections in another thread somewhere?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by RobKamm

Okay, I'll bite. I don't recall having heard an objection to that idea. Have you spelled out your objections in another thread somewhere?

Probably somewhere. But basically, I think it's unrealistic (most of the combat Perks are effectively mini-skills, and you aren't restricted in buying skills by how many points you have in different skills), and in some cases leads to nonsensical results.

Consider a hypothetical style that is all about using a weapon for which Exotic Weapon Training would apply. I think trident requires it, so before I can buy this perk in learning my Atlantian Tridentfighting style, I have to spend 10 points on Spear skill, during which I am more effective with a spear than a trident, even though I've never so much as touched a spear in the training process....

There are actually quite a few combat perks that could quite reasonably be the core technique of a style, which is effectively impossible with this rule. Razor Kicks for example. Or Off Hand Weapon Training. And that used to be a technique remember - perfectly legal for a character to have for several different weapons, even at fairly low skills, so now you need 20 points of combat skills to have it in one, let alone for two or three weapons?

It's a nod to D&D Feats I think, and might be OK if the flavor text about combat perks ("minor advantages for veteran warriors") were *true*, but in most cases it isn't. Many of them are specialized training extending a specific weapon skill, so a prerequisite based on points or level in that particular skill might make sense, but one of points in totally unrelated combat skills?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by malloyd

There are actually quite a few combat perks that could quite reasonably be the core technique of a style, which is effectively impossible with this rule. Razor Kicks for example. Or Off Hand Weapon Training. And that used to be a technique remember - perfectly legal for a character to have for several different weapons, even at fairly low skills, so now you need 20 points of combat skills to have it in one, let alone for two or three weapons?

I have to disagree with you here, and make a assumption. First the assumption, you mentioned Razor Kicks so I am going to go with Capoeira. Now the disagreement: it says pretty implicitly in the style that you can learn Acrobatic Kicks as soon as you have 1 point in Acrobatics. So for your Atlantean Tridentfighting style you can simply put in the same clause, as soon as you have 1 point in Spear you get to buy a EWT perk for Electro-Tridents (or what not)

Even if that wasn't the style you were referencing, perhaps you were just speaking about Ninja using shuriken this way...; still the point is valid. When you design a style simply put in the same caveat that Capoeira has listed.


I like perks btw, one of the best things GURPS ever did for the system.

Ghostdancer

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I have to disagree with you here, and make a assumption. First the assumption, you mentioned Razor Kicks so I am going to go with Capoeira. Now the disagreement: it says pretty implicitly in the style that you can learn Acrobatic Kicks as soon as you have 1 point in Acrobatics. So for your Atlantean Tridentfighting style you can simply put in the same clause, as soon as you have 1 point in Spear you get to buy a EWT perk for Electro-Tridents (or what not)

Even if that wasn't the style you were referencing, perhaps you were just speaking about Ninja using shuriken this way...; still the point is valid. When you design a style simply put in the same caveat that Capoeira has listed.


I like perks btw, one of the best things GURPS ever did for the system.

Ghostdancer

Quoted for Truth. Several styles state outright that you can buy a particular perk before you have 10 points in the style, but most perks represent traits that are only appropriate to very experienced fighters.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Quoted for Truth. Several styles state outright that you can buy a particular perk before you have 10 points in the style, but most perks represent traits that are only appropriate to very experienced fighters.

Yes, this. The 10 points in a style/20 points in combat skills is to restrict the "cool stuff you learn later" stuff to people who actually have the experience to justify it. This way you don't have 1 point in Karate plus a pile of karate-based perks you couldn't really have learned. It's a tool to help differentiate styles, make styles useful, and to keep control of the number of perks any one fighter would have - which helps to further differentiate fighters within a style, so all TKD guys don't look like other TKD guys, or all karataka like all other karateka.

But we deliberately created and used exceptions to this, and GMs can freely use this to completely or partly wave any restrictions to make their campaigns work better. Got a style a perk you can't learn until you master the basics? Go with the usual rules. Got a style that needs a perk for every practitioner or it doesn't make sense? Put it in as an exception and say "you can buy this perk immediately." You can even go the other way, and add perks that you can't get without steeper requirements - having another perk, say, or having 20 points in a style or 40 points in combat skills. We didn't do any, but you probably could without breaking anything. And for some styles and some campaigns, that might be just what is needed.

Or you can just check them out entirely. It's not going to break the game or cause the dice to always come up all 6s for you or anything. It's just a way to avoid "everyone in my campaign drops 1 point into a weapon skill and then buys these five perks...." situation.

[Flyndaran]

And to over-analyze the trident example, shouldn't you have at least a single point in poking things with a pointy stick with a single point before learning how to poke things with a pointy stick with many points?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Yes, this. The 10 points in a style/20 points in combat skills is to restrict the "cool stuff you learn later" stuff to people who actually have the experience to justify it. This way you don't have 1 point in Karate plus a pile of karate-based perks you couldn't really have learned. It's a tool to help differentiate styles, make styles useful, and to keep control of the number of perks any one fighter would have - which helps to further differentiate fighters within a style, so all TKD guys don't look like other TKD guys, or all karataka like all other karateka.

A reasonable goal, but probably a poorly chosen mechanic for it. It doesn't even reliably achieve the stated goal - the 10/20 limitation doesn't prevent you from having 1 point in Karate plus a pile of karate-based perks, it just requires you to have lots of points in something other than karate before you can. I'd have set a minimum skill level or number of points in the core skill for most of them that are effectively skill extensions. Perhaps 4 points in the base skill (the same level at which techniques start making much sense).

We didn't do any, but you probably could without breaking anything.

If the perks are balanced at their 1 point cost, you shouldn't actually *break* anything regardless of how you make them available.

The issue is not so much balance as making the limitations and combinations make sense. And really, that's another reason I'm not fond of them. Exactly identical arguments apply to making sure your combinations of skills and techniques and advantages and disadvantages make sense, but the only equivalent rule trying to force that is the disadvantage cap, which draws pretty much the same critiques for being artificial and not actually achieving the intended goal. It's a laudible goal, but simple rules covering a lot of traits at a time are not likely to ever get you much closer to it.