What is a combat skill for MA: Style Perks

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

I thought the text was pretty clear, but one of my players has a different interpretation than I do.

You can buy one Style Perk for every 20 points of Combat Skills you have. I say that Combat Skills are unarmed combat skills and weapon skills, not including modern weapons such as guns. While my player says that it includes Guns and Fast Draw.

Is there an official ruling on this? How do the rest of you do this?

This is defined on pg.55 of Martial Arts, and it covers muscle-powered or innate ranged attacks. So NOT Guns, Beams, Artillery and so on

For style specific Style Perks, I read required skills do not include cinematic skills. Should they?

Depends on the campaign. In a cinematic campaign a GM is free to say that you need the cinematic skills as well to be part of a style (increasing the style cost), but then you'll also need to be TBaM or WM before you can even think of entering that style. Which makes it most appropriate for cinematic games where most players are expected to have TBaM or WM.

[vicky_molokh]

Gun and similar skills are perfectly reasonable for Gun Perks.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

This is defined on pg.55 of Martial Arts, and it covers muscle-powered or innate ranged attacks. So NOT Guns, Beams, Artillery and so on

I'm fairly certain that Gun-Fu extends that. The relevant text in PU2 certainly doesn't specify. It makes absolutely no sense that a shooter should need Brawling at 20 in order to take Deadeye.

[Kromm]

If the fighter lacks a fighting style, then use the skills that make sense for the Style Perk in question. Most combat perks would combine the Combat Skills list on p. 55 of Martial Arts with the Shooting Skills notes on p. 16 of Gun Fu. The subset of perks that pertain strictly to low-tech weapons would use only the former box; the subset that are uniquely relevant to firearms would use only the latter. All skills in both boxes are "combat skills" in situations where the rules don't differentiate, regardless of TL or whether they cover melee or ranged combat.

If the fighter has a combat style, then any skill listed for it counts toward points in skills for the perks of that style. This is true even for skills like First Aid and Theology, which have little use in combat. An advantage of styles is more ready access to Style Perks, whence the name "Style Perk." This doesn't just mean that fewer points in skills are needed to allow a perk – it also means that the enabling skills might well be of any type.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Kromm

If the fighter lacks a fighting style, then use the skills that make sense for the Style Perk in question. Most combat perks would combine the Combat Skills list on p. 55 of Martial Arts with the Shooting Skills notes on p. 16 of Gun Fu. The subset of perks that pertain strictly to low-tech weapons would use only the former box; the subset that are uniquely relevant to firearms would use only the latter. All skills in both boxes are "combat skills" in situations where the rules don't differentiate, regardless of TL or whether they cover melee or ranged combat.

If the fighter has a combat style, then any skill listed for it counts toward points in skills for the perks of that style. This is true even for skills like First Aid and Theology, which have little use in combat. An advantage of styles is more ready access to Style Perks, whence the name "Style Perk." This doesn't just mean that fewer points in skills are needed to allow a perk – it also means that the enabling skills might well be of any type.

I don't want to derail the thread but I have a similar question about Magical Styles. In Magical Styles only spells can count towards style perks, is there any reason why the skills for a given style shouldn't count?

Also, do optional skills count as skills for the style itself, or is it only the skills listed in the top part of the style description?

Ghostdancer

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

IAlso, do optional skills count as skills for the style itself, or is it only the skills listed in the top part of the style description?

I'd say that if you learned it from the same sources you are learning the style perk from, it counts toward prerequisites for the perk.

Yes this does mean that two characters, both students of the style, and with identical point and skill distributions, might differ in whether or not they qualify for a style perk depending on their history. I don't see that as an additional problem (over and above my objections to the entire count the points prerequisites concept) though.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'd say that if you learned it from the same sources you are learning the style perk from, it counts toward prerequisites for the perk.

Yes this does mean that two characters, both students of the style, and with identical point and skill distributions, might differ in whether or not they qualify for a style perk depending on their history. I don't see that as an additional problem (over and above my objections to the entire count the points prerequisites concept) though.

Hmmm so I suppose a GM would decide on a case by case basis. I guess that would also mean you would need to notate that somewhere on the character itself. That probably works well enough for gov't work. ^_^

Any guess why skills for Magical Styles don't add to points in the style? That one has been bugging me a bit. I know I can hand waive it I am just curious about the reasoning behind it.

Ghostdancer

[RobKamm]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I don't see that as an additional problem (over and above my objections to the entire count the points prerequisites concept) though.

Okay, I'll bite. I don't recall having heard an objection to that idea. Have you spelled out your objections in another thread somewhere?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by RobKamm

Okay, I'll bite. I don't recall having heard an objection to that idea. Have you spelled out your objections in another thread somewhere?

Probably somewhere. But basically, I think it's unrealistic (most of the combat Perks are effectively mini-skills, and you aren't restricted in buying skills by how many points you have in different skills), and in some cases leads to nonsensical results.

Consider a hypothetical style that is all about using a weapon for which Exotic Weapon Training would apply. I think trident requires it, so before I can buy this perk in learning my Atlantian Tridentfighting style, I have to spend 10 points on Spear skill, during which I am more effective with a spear than a trident, even though I've never so much as touched a spear in the training process....

There are actually quite a few combat perks that could quite reasonably be the core technique of a style, which is effectively impossible with this rule. Razor Kicks for example. Or Off Hand Weapon Training. And that used to be a technique remember - perfectly legal for a character to have for several different weapons, even at fairly low skills, so now you need 20 points of combat skills to have it in one, let alone for two or three weapons?

It's a nod to D&D Feats I think, and might be OK if the flavor text about combat perks ("minor advantages for veteran warriors") were *true*, but in most cases it isn't. Many of them are specialized training extending a specific weapon skill, so a prerequisite based on points or level in that particular skill might make sense, but one of points in totally unrelated combat skills?

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Kromm

If the fighter has a combat style, then any skill listed for it counts toward points in skills for the perks of that style. This is true even for skills like First Aid and Theology, which have little use in combat. An advantage of styles is more ready access to Style Perks, whence the name "Style Perk." This doesn't just mean that fewer points in skills are needed to allow a perk – it also means that the enabling skills might well be of any type.

I know it is all required skills, even if they aren't combat skills. That's why I wanted to rename the thread when I added the question about this part of Style Perks. What wasn't clear to me was if this included cinematic skills or not. But from this I take it that cinematic skills should be counted.