GURPS Shadowrun

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Godogma

Augmented Reality (not sure where that term came from as its not used in GURPS and I've blanked out what I read of SR4 deliberately) seems to make several assumptions, (namely that everyone and everything can be hacked wirelessly) that I really don't want included in my games.

UT56, also here. And no, that's not part of the assumptions of AR, it's part of assumptions I made because I didn't want all hackers to be defeated by people saying "I turn my wireless off."

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

UT56, also here.

Specifically this guy. It's also used in THS, so it's definitely "Used in GURPS", but more importantly, I think, is that it's not a gaming term, but rather the way that computers are increasingly being used in the real world. Smart phones apps already use quite a lot of AR.

[Godogma]

Well, I don't mind Augmented Reality as presented by UT - it seems mainly that my problems are with the assumptions you made in order to make deckers less prone to being worthless (although how they're worthless when they're an integral part of a team in the first place and turn off the security/open the doors/steal the data etc in the first place I have no idea) not sure why but you seem to want to take them out of the niche they were designed for and make them into a character more akin to a technological wizard - and also to allow them the ability to hack EVERYTHING.

Aside from those assumptions I thought the original idea you had for hacking stuff based on ritual magic was a good simplification that I'd be happy to use for the most part.

EDIT: I did have to look up Augmented Reality in UT, because I haven't had a character who utilized it before and also none of my TL10 players have shown an interest in it, so I didn't recognize the term, I've only read over that section a couple of times.

[Godogma]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Specifically this guy. It's also used in THS, so it's definitely "Used in GURPS", but more importantly, I think, is that it's not a gaming term, but rather the way that computers are increasingly being used in the real world. Smart phones apps already use quite a lot of AR.

You can call me a neo-luddite for all I care but I don't see a use for a Smart Phone to start with. I can communicate just fine with a land line, I don't have a cellphone except for emergencies and I don't give out the number.

I have a digital camera to take pictures with and a laptop and desktop to play games/browse the web/etc.

If I'm outside enjoying nature I don't need some smart phone or whatnot else to alter my perception of reality to do so. Nor do I feel the need to be "jacked in" all the time so to speak.

I only used facebook to play games, and haven't even logged into it in six months. I guess it mainly boils down to how you perceive the world I suppose.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Godogma

I can communicate just fine with a land line, I don't have a cellphone except for emergencies and I don't give out the number.

Well, you're certainly not on par with most Americans, especially the younger ones, and your view would be even less prevalent 65 years from now, I'm guessing.

According to this 16% of people don't have a landline anymore, 13% have one but almost never use it, and 82% of people have cell phones. A third of people under thirty only have cell phones, so it's strongly age correlated. I'm guessing it's a trend that will continue.

[Godogma]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Well, you're certainly not on par with most Americans, especially the younger ones, and your view would be even less prevalent 65 years from now, I'm guessing.

I am a "younger one" so to speak, I'm 25 years old.

However, 65 years from now I'm certain cellphone technology will be a lot better anyway. Popping and cracking and dropouts pretty much describe cell phone use in my current locale in the North GA mountains very well. Hell, from one room in my house to the others you can lose from one bar to all bars of cellphone signal.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by CousinX

Well, actually, they initiated that silliness when they started talking about Augmented Reality and Ubiquitous Computing. ("They," in this case, being "futurists and sci-fi writers.") Transhuman Space has similar silliness, and I think they actually adopted the idea before SR4 came out.

Another thought experiment, this one with two parts.

1. It's 2075, you're in an airport, and there's a guy with a laptop computer sitting across from you. You've heard of this thing called "brainhacking," which you have good reason to believe is deadly and horrible. This guy across from you looks pretty shifty to you; he keeps looking at his watch and glancing around impatiently. You're pretty sure that his computer could run brainhacking software.

Do you try to kill him on the spot?

Do you warn him, "Hey, pal, you better not be thinking of brainhacking me!"?

Do you fetch security? What do you tell them?

Do you, at that moment, decide that in a world with brainhacking, you'd like to turn your freedom -- and everyone else's -- over to the Jackboots, just in case this shifty-looking guy (or any other suspiciously computer-bearing characters) might have one?

2. It's 2010, you're in an airport, and there's a guy with a suitcase sitting across from you. You've heard of this thing called a "suitcase nuke," which you have good reason to believe would kill you and a whole lotta other innocent people. This guy across from you looks pretty shifty to you; he keeps looking at his watch and glancing around impatiently. You're pretty sure that his suitcase could contain a suitcase nuke.

Do you try to kill him on the spot?

Do you warn him, "Hey, pal, you better not be thinking of setting off a suitcase nuke!"?

Do you fetch security? What do you tell them?

Do you, at that moment, decide that in a world with suitcase nukes, you'd like to turn your freedom -- and everyone else's -- over to the Jackboots, just in case this shifty-looking guy (or any other suspiciously suitcase-laden characters) might have one?

If computers that can brainhack you with lethal results were as rare and hard to build as suitcase nukes (and this is impossible in today's world for anyone except a major military-industrial complex) you might have a valid parallel.

Instead you seem to be trying to set up a world where computers equal deathrays yet are as common as cellphones. This is the central disconnect. This is the thing that snaps my SoD. This doesn't make sense.

Indeed, one of the things that made SR3 kind of tight-assed was trying to patch logical holes in the setting.

Part of the patch on one of those logical holes was to admit that if you weren't jacked into the Matrix with hot ASiST with all the safety overrides turned off Black Ice couldn't kill you.

Legal sane sararimen never interacted with the Matrix at that level of intensity but they weren't in personal danger either. This made much more sense.

I also may be the wrong to try and use Transhuman Space as a an argument against. I'm listed as a playtester in all but 2 of every TS book SJGames ever published. I missed one because I had major surgery during the playtest. :)

So this means I know that AR is very common in the TS world but not universal, does not require neurosurgery and can't kill you. You didn't even have to participate in AR to reap whatever benefits it grants. You could have your SAI do it for you.

I also know that TS is built around a "strong encryption" assumption. Very strong in 4e terms, when the rest of the computing world in TS is about TL 10, encryption would be TL15 and a half. It's the sort of place where there is very very little serious hacking and the net is improbably secure. That's one of the reason ubiquitous computing works in the setting.

When I was trying to puzzle my way through SR4 I thought the SAI trick was what I would do in that setting. I'd run a disposably cheap computer as my personal node, set it to go "beep" if it got pinged by the cops and mostly ignore it the rest of the time.

AR mostly seems to be an advertising medium in either world and people living in such a world want to find some way to filter out the commercials.

There was a good bit in TS about filtering software but that is only one step short of my having the SAI do the whole thing for you.

So, no. Augmented Reality and Ubiquitous Computing does not automatically lead to brain-frying computers and the universal acceptance of them. I don't think there's a logical way they could

[Godogma]

*claps for Fred's last post*

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

If computers that can brainhack you with lethal results were as rare and hard to build as suitcase nukes (and this is impossible in today's world for anyone except a major military-industrial complex) you might have a valid parallel.

How about a suitcase full of high explosives? They're pretty easy to make, and can pretty easily kill a buncha people at once in a suitcase sized package as well.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I also may be the wrong to try and use Transhuman Space as a an argument against.

Well then it's a good thing he was responding to Godogma, who hadn't heard of AR, and Flyndaran, wasn't it?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by CousinX

Well, actually, they initiated that silliness when they started talking about Augmented Reality and Ubiquitous Computing. ("They," in this case, being "futurists and sci-fi writers.") Transhuman Space has similar silliness, and I think they actually adopted the idea before SR4 came out.

CP2020 had it even earlier.