Converted Abiltiy: Tough

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I think the usual solution for this is to sell back the benefits of Unkillable 1.

Originally Posted by zylosan

I am not sure what you mean. Could you please explain?

Unkillable 1 :
no staying alive HT roll untill -10*HP

Unkillable 2/3 :
no staying alive HT roll untill -10*HP
and
return from death after -10*hp

unkillable 2/3 without 1
return from death after a failed staying alive HT roll
usually priced as unkillable 2/3(not unkillable 1:-20%)

Hope this help

Celjabba

[Ejidoth]

The other way to work it is to note that one-off abilities (Favor, for instance) are typically one fifth the cost. Sometimes that doesn't work out right, but in this case, reverse-engineering that, making Extra Life not a one-off ability gives it a price of 125, which fits neatly in between Unkillable 2 and Unkillable 3. Call it a +400% enhancement on Extra Life.

The problem with selling back Unkillable 1 when you have Unkillable 3 is that you can't be sure Unkillable 1 is really worth 50 points as part of Unkillable 3.

Not having to make death checks or instant-die at -5xHP is worth 50 points for a character that can die (i.e. one that has Unkillable 1), but it's not worth as much for a character that can't die, since if he 'dies' he's just out of the fight, not out of the game.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

The problem with selling back Unkillable 1 when you have Unkillable 3 is that you can't be sure Unkillable 1 is really worth 50 points as part of Unkillable 3.

Not having to make death checks or instant-die at -5xHP is worth 50 points for a character that can die (i.e. one that has Unkillable 1), but it's not worth as much for a character that can't die, since if he 'dies' he's just out of the fight, not out of the game.

The suggestion above, wich origin at first from RPK mygurps, is -20% for selling back UK1, probably for that exact reason.

Celjabba

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The suggestion above, wich origin at first from RPK mygurps, is -20% for selling back UK1, probably for that exact reason.

That does seem to have been the thought behind his ruling. I think it somewhat undervalues the limitation... also, it is a bit vexing that it makes it more of an absolute drawback for Unk3 than for Unk2. Not that I have a big beef with the idea... it is quite playable as a houserule.

[Verjigorm]

I would generally just throw away trying to make direct conversions of abilities, and instead try to find why Tough Models are Tough. In the Iron Kingdoms RPG, Trollkin(tough) have high constitution and an ability to shrug off "non-lethal" damage. I think this translates more as:

HT 13+, Resistance to Metabolic Hazards +3, Hard to Kill 2 or Hard to Subdue and Very Rapid Healing(maybe even a very low powered version of Regeneration).


Trying to do direct conversions of wargames into roleplaying is just silly.

[zylosan]

Trying to do direct conversions of wargames into roleplaying is just silly.

Silly perhaps but I enjoy the discussions.

After further consideration and reading the post above. I think I will have to go with something along the lines of

HT +2, Resistance to Metabolic Hazards +3, Hard to Kill 2 (Added effect, If this bonus makes the difference between success and failure of a death save, you DO NOT collapse apparently dead or unconsious. + 50%) and Hard to Subdue 2.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by zylosan

Silly perhaps but I enjoy the discussions.

Well, I mean that actually trying to convert one mechanic directly is a poor technique, because the underlying philosophies of the games are different and the balances have different end results in mind.

HT +2, Resistance to Metabolic Hazards +3, Hard to Kill 2 (Added effect, If this bonus makes the difference between success and failure of a death save, you DO NOT collapse apparently dead or unconsious. + 50%) and Hard to Subdue 2.

Don't make it hard to kill. Instead make it hard to Subdue: this keeps the toughies fighting except when gibbed by massive attacks(and they might even survive a few of those), rather than being knocked out and coming to later.

"Tough" is probably best represented as a combination of Hard to Subdue and high HT. Trollkin arn't the only tough models out there though. The resistance to metabolic hazards applies to the Trollkin, rather than as a blanket "tough" component.

For what it's worth, here's what I would propose as a racial template for troll kin:
ST +4, HP +2, DX -1, HT +3, Basic Speed -1, SM +1
Hard to Kill 2, Hard to Subdue 2, Resistance to Metabolic Hazards +3, Regeneration(slow) and regrowth. Hamfisted and some form of social disadvantages are in order. Social Stigma(Barbarians) is suitable for Kriel Trolls who arn't living in the human cities. Appearance you may have to figure out someway else: I think some trollkin look silly and buffonish, but some are real swell lookers.

Trollkin are large and powerful by human standards and can take greater abuse than a man. They are somewhat clumsier and less agile, and notably slower in a foot race than a man.

Full blooded trolls, on the other hand, are considerably dumber(IQ -2 or even 3), but are also much larger(SM 2 or 3, ST +8, HP +4) and solid. And their regeneration is much more extreme. Dire trolls are, again, even dumber and larger. I'd expect them to have high 20s ST scores, with low 30s a distinct possibility. And some really cool tricks in the case of earthborn.