Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Off list, Kromm pointed out to me that this is something many get wrong; there are so many QCs in grappling that it's easy to forget that THIS one is a REGULAR contest.

Just so. Which is why I feel that Arm Locks are particuarly problematic, with their +9 in the Quick Contest. They effectively offer a short-cut to what is functionally almost as good as a pin and what a short-cut it is! No weaknesses, really.

As always, I don't like it when one combat option is so clearly superior to others than it makes no sense to use anything else. That does not seem to me to reflect reality and it does not make for interesting role-playing during combat either.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Decent as in 'now that you're grappled you're at a -4 attack penalty to grapple back?' Decent as in 'if the takedown succeeds, you're at an ADDITIONAL' -4 penalty to attack to grapple back due to Posture?

No...once you've been grappled, you're screwed.

You have a -4 penalty to grapple back, yes, but if you foe wants to retain his hold of you, his only opportunity for an active defence are a Parry using grappling skill or a Dodge. Neither of which he may add a Retreat bonus to, I note. This is a huge deal, as a normal human has a far better Retreating Dodge than he has a parry with grappling skill.

You get a chance to grapple before a takedown can take effect. And a takedown is far from automatic, not to mention that you can sprawl. Ground Fighting can eliminate any penalty for prone posture.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

-4 to DX when using that arm, so he can grapple back using the other arm without penalty.

So I've always run it as a -2 penalty when grappling back after getting one arm grappled if using the free arm plus the arm which has been grappled, hadn't realized that was a house rule and not RAW...

Come on, people...I'm talking about grappling the body and doing a takedown here.

Sorry if I come off as irritated at you, Ze'. I'm not. But I posted two examples, one with Arm Lock (where I actually left off the final 'damaging' step, passively presuming that once you get the arm and he fails to break free, that's fait accompli), the other, which actually seems WORSE in a way, is Grapple-Takedown-Pin, which seems much more juicy than the original Grapple-Takedown-Change Positions to Rear Mount-Choke Hold sequence I wanted to do.

As I said in that post, especially...PLEASE tell me where in the sequence I've described I get it wrong. There's already one possibility, in that one of the contests is a Regular Contest rather than a QC, which means not only do you have to outdo the other guy's margin, but have to actually roll a success. Still, with the bonuses stacked on there, I suspect that's not an issue.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

You have a -4 penalty to grapple back, yes,

which is a big 'effing deal, unless you're already uber-grappler. Even someone who's got (say) DX12 and Wrestling-14, a 40-50pt investment, is only 50-50% to grapple back.

And I also happen to think that the -4 to Grapple back is probably too harsh...and I also have some what I think are better ideas here. We shall see.

... but if you foe wants to retain his hold of you, his only opportunity for an active defence are a Parry using grappling skill or a Dodge. Neither of which he may add a Retreat bonus to, I note. This is a huge deal, as a normal human has a far better Retreating Dodge than he has a parry with grappling skill.

My concern in this matter is more around two trained grapplers in the skill 12-16 range; I will again stipulate that having a grappler thrash a totally untrained striker is realistic and born out by the early years of MMA competitions, plus a great YouTube video of some tiny wrestler guy beating the tar out of a 6'4" basketball player who really picked the wrong guy to haze.

You get a chance to grapple before a takedown can take effect. And a takedown is far from automatic, not to mention that you can sprawl. Ground Fighting can eliminate any penalty for prone posture.

I did note the Sprawl option in Martial Arts, although I'll note that you DO go down automatically if you sprawl, which is the entire point of the takedown. The Ground Fighting requirement was noted in my original example; I'd definitely consider it one of the "two or three" Techniques that should be in most 'modern grappler' styles.

I'll also note that for the practitioner that doesn't want to go to ground (b/c they don't have Ground Fighting, or because in the words of Kuk Sa Nim Taejoon Lee, "the problem with gangs is that there's never just one opponent") that the best option is a Judo Throw or a throw from an Arm Lock.

Still, I am again more concerned in this case with the perception of how two fighters who choose to engage in a grappling match who ARE reasonably skilled will be a case of 'whoever succeeds in that first grapple wins.'

[DouglasCole]

Had a thought last night that might address some of the balance concerns with adding skill to stat for some things.

1) remove this from the Perk. Now the Perk is only swapping ST for DX in appropriate situations.

2) apply the following rule all the time:

When making a ST roll such as the one to Break Free, or to resist damage (ST or HT on the defense), ALWAYS take HALF of the skill bonus/penalty (DX-2, DX+5), rounded down, to ST.

So an untrained person who has ST14, but no points in any grappling skill, would be looking at DX-5 (Wrestling or Sumo) or DX-6 (Judo); half that default in both cases is -3, so he'd be effectively at ST11 if untrained. I don't think (I looked on the net, but couldn't find...) any of these skills has a natural default, so I used the effective defaults from the usual A and H skills to come up with the 'untrained' penalties.

If trained to, say, DX+6, he'd roll at ST17, since not only is he strong, but he's knowledgeable about how best to technically apply that ST.

So, in order to grapple with your full effective ST, you must have Wrestling, Judo, or Sumo (and this tends to vary with certain rules, so Wrestling is likely the best bet here) at DX, for two to four points.

This makes a sliding scale of impact of ST, shows how untrained and novice grapplers can be owned by skilled but weaker fighters, and how it naturally gets better over time with training. And this applies to everyone, so you don't need to remember a one-point Perk in order to fight effectively; you will naturally apply your skill to your natural ST when it comes to avoiding the impact of locks, throws, takedowns, and grapples.

Power Grappling, then, only allows substituting ST for DX for effect (but not to-hit or defense rolls) rolls.


Edit: This basically says that 8pts in skill are equivalent to 10pts in ST (which has ancillary benefits beyond these rolls). It also more or less establishes a baseline for the ratio at which "the weaker fighter can overcome a stronger one, yadda^3" at every two points in skill offset one point in ST. Six points in skill (not character points, but Judo-10 to Judo-16) would be required for every +1SM difference, IIRC, since I think each point is +3 on the contest of skill.

It's basically point balanced, and with the modification I propose, it's in place all the time, no perks or special consideration required. I THINK that will help redress some of the issues I have with how quickly fights can end when they shouldn't.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Icelander

You have a -4 penalty to grapple back, yes, but if you foe wants to retain his hold of you, his only opportunity for an active defence are a Parry using grappling skill or a Dodge. Neither of which he may add a Retreat bonus to, I note. This is a huge deal, as a normal human has a far better Retreating Dodge than he has a parry with grappling skill.

The -4 to attack is at least as good as +2 to defense. So unless the original grappler's base dodge is as high as their best unarmed parry (not just grappling parry), the counter-grapple is at least as hard as a non-counter grapple...and landing a grapple takes some time on average.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The -4 to attack is at least as good as +2 to defense. So unless the original grappler's base dodge is as high as their best unarmed parry (not just grappling parry), the counter-grapple is at least as hard as a non-counter grapple...and landing a grapple takes some time on average.

For a fairly typical man-at-arms with Wrestling at DX+2, skill 12 and Dodge 8; we get a Dodge of 11 with Retreat, but only a Parry of 9. So, sure, the counter-grapple is as hard as the first grapple, but no harder, really.

Against an unskilled grappler, as Doug pointed out above, it's far easier than that. Which is quite realistic.

[Dinadon]

In response to the original post I would say it is too seldom to be worth the split. Having looked over everything to do with grappling in Basic and MA, the overlap of both effects seems large. If someone were to take one of the effects as a perk, the utility of the other would then be worth less than if it had been picked first. In other words, the other effect is worth less than a perk once you have one of them.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

In response to the original post I would say it is too seldom to be worth the split. Having looked over everything to do with grappling in Basic and MA, the overlap of both effects seems large. If someone were to take one of the effects as a perk, the utility of the other would then be worth less than if it had been picked first. In other words, the other effect is worth less than a perk once you have one of them.

I suppose this is a fair observation.

But not all Perks are equal. Instead of comparing the effects against each other, the question we have to ask, is a Perk that encompasses only one of these effects worth it when compared to any other Perks that could be taken instead? Is Cunning Grappler (add full skill to ST rolls instead of +1 or +2 for skill) comparable to Ground Guard? Is Power Grappling (replace DX-based rolls with ST-based rolls) comparable to Neck Control?

In my view, the answer to this is yes, these Perks stack up well against other Perks which could benefit a similar character. Before Power Grappling is split, it is indisputably better than other Perks which affect grappling. Even with the split, the two resulting ones are very competative.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I suppose this is a fair observation.

But not all Perks are equal.

I don't know that this was a design goal for Perks, though. I understand your desire for it, but all skills aren't created equal either.