Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'

[DouglasCole]

As a by the by, at this point I'm going to drop off for a bit. I've sunk too much time into this argument as is. I'll keep track of the thread, because it's interesting, but I've yet to be convinced that the philosophy of Power Grappling is off in any way. The non-degenerate examples I ran, though few in number (the Arm Lock case and the Takedown and Pin case) showed me that PG mainly allows for an effective DEFENSE against what would otherwise be a totally dominating grappling offense.

I would be happy to see examples of where non-degenerate cases, that is, characters that are reasonable, break down unbelievably due to PG. I'd likely accept nearly any character with ST from 8-18, DX from 10-14, and up to about 30-40 points in unarmed combat skills.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I'll keep track of the thread, because it's interesting, but I've yet to be convinced that the philosophy of Power Grappling is off in any way.

Note that I was originally concerned with it not because of what it allowed you to do, which I think are both rather reasonable things for a trained grappler, but rather that one Perk allowed two essentially unconnected benefits, either of which seems rather useful on their own to me.

I was simply wondering whether to split Power Grappling into one Perk which allows one to substitute ST for DX and another Perk which allows one to substitute ST-based skill for ST. I don't think you're really given your opinion on what you think about that.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The non-degenerate examples I ran, though few in number (the Arm Lock case and the Takedown and Pin case) showed me that PG mainly allows for an effective DEFENSE against what would otherwise be a totally dominating grappling offense.

Entirely unconnected to Power Grappling, I was shocked when I found out that the +4 to the Quick Contest to avoid having someone break free and the cumulative -1 penalty to his rolls were in addition to the +5 you get when you use both hands. I always thought it was instead, and still found Arm Locks useful and realistic enough.

I have zero problems with an Arm Lock being extraordinarily difficult to escape from once you've got a secure lock, but I can't help but think that an effective +9 to one side of the QC immediately upon grabbing the arm might be overstating it. That essentially means that a grappler has pretty much no chance to escape once a grappler of equal skill has started to apply an Arm Lock. If he fails the first Active Defence, he has already lost.

If both fighters are pretty reasonable ST 12, DX 10 types with skill 12 and one of them fails an active defence, we move to a QC of 14 vs. 23. If anyone's got a handy spreadsheet to calculate that, he can see how incredibly unlikely that is. My unscientific guess is that it's well under 5%.

[Streacer]

I'll certainly not dispute that I have been boiling the RAW down to 1-dimensional absurdity in order to illustrate a point. My original goal was/is precisely to find a way to change or clarify it so as to prevent similar situations from cropping up in some future game, in order to do a better job as GM. See also "Judo Throwing an Elephant".

Off the top of my head I'm not aware of any other uncapped bonuses in GURPS, I feel the change from a QC of attribute to a QC of skill is an oversight.

It doesn't? I'd assume skill adds to ST here if it's an option, both on attack and defense.

The way I read the Wrestling skill description it doesn't look like it provides the +1/+2 bonus to it, which means PG doesn't apply either. Could just be ambiguously worded though.

Trade-off? It's not a trade-off, and isn't meant that way. Perks are effectively "you can ignore one special case rule that normally gets in your way" in many cases. In this case, for non-degenerate builds, it allows skill to apply to ST in a few ways that actually work out, in my opinion and observation through training and practice, closer to how real grappling tends to work than the rules currently show.

This is probably our fundamental difference then. I feel that perks are 1 point advantages and should be balanced as such, and that PG may not currently meet that criteria.



I'm sorry that you think I am trying to argue with you, I appreciate your insight. Have a nice day.

[Streacer]

allows for an effective DEFENSE against what would otherwise be a totally dominating grappling offense.

but I can't help but think that an effective +9 to one side of the QC immediately upon grabbing the arm might be overstating it.

At least everyone seems to agree that the roll to break free is quite harsh in general.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I was simply wondering whether to split Power Grappling into one Perk which allows one to substitute ST for DX and another Perk which allows one to substitute ST-based skill for ST. I don't think you're really given your opinion on what you think about that.

I guess I look at them as sorta the same thing. In the one case (ST for DX) based Skill rolls, you're skillfully using either finesse (DX) or power (ST) to accomplish something. In the other (Skill+ST for ST), you're skillfully adding to your power based on your training. While the game mechanical effects may or may not be different, I see these two things as being from the same basic source.

A more interesting way to go - that might take playtesting - would be to look at an alternate Perk that allowed substituting DX or DX-based skill for ST in the contests to resist the effects of some of the various grappling maneuvers. Or just dispense with the Perk completely (again, free associating here rather than stating agreement or suggesting this is the right way to go) and always allow skill to add to ST for all, without the Perk, and just limit the Perk to the ST/DX tradeoff.

So, by and large, I don't see the need to split them, since I see the root cause, the ability the Perk grants, as 'can apply a force multiplier to ST based on study, and sometimes - in the ST for DX case - this force multiplier is more effective than finesse and study alone.'

Entirely unconnected to Power Grappling, I was shocked when I found out that the +4 to the Quick Contest to avoid having someone break free and the cumulative -1 penalty to his rolls were in addition to the +5 you get when you use both hands. I always thought it was instead, and still found Arm Locks useful and realistic enough.

I have zero problems with an Arm Lock being extraordinarily difficult to escape from once you've got a secure lock, but I can't help but think that an effective +9 to one side of the QC immediately upon grabbing the arm might be overstating it. That essentially means that a grappler has pretty much no chance to escape once a grappler of equal skill has started to apply an Arm Lock. If he fails the first Active Defence, he has already lost.

If both fighters are pretty reasonable ST 12, DX 10 types with skill 12 and one of them fails an active defence, we move to a QC of 14 vs. 23. If anyone's got a handy spreadsheet to calculate that, he can see how incredibly unlikely that is. My unscientific guess is that it's well under 5%.

My equally unscientific guess is you're right. Grappling contests seem to either go "attack/failed defense --> death spiral" or into perhaps a better matched series of attack/successful defense --> try it in reverse until someone succeeds.

I've got a concept in the background here that I've bounced off of Sean and Peter...we'll see how it plays out.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Streacer

At least everyone seems to agree that the roll to break free is quite harsh in general.

Yeah...I have a feeling that I know WHY it's that way, and in that particular rationale, it makes sense, but that means the issue's somewhere else.

dhc

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I guess I look at them as sorta the same thing. In the one case (ST for DX) based Skill rolls, you're skillfully using either finesse (DX) or power (ST) to accomplish something. In the other (Skill+ST for ST), you're skillfully adding to your power based on your training. While the game mechanical effects may or may not be different, I see these two things as being from the same basic source.

Interesting. I feel that there is a clear difference between the two, in that very different character concepts might call for one or the other, but not always both.

I guess I see the ST-for-DX substitution as being a basic part of being strong and knowing how to take advantage of it, whereas I view the other as being some extremely cunning tricks that allow a veteran grappler to compete 'out of his weight class', so to speak. One is something that I'd slap on a lot of warriors who've learnt some kampfringen as the part of their armed styles, but the other is something I'd only give to those who truly master grappling and can therefore surprise fighters who feel confident in outmassing them comfortably.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

A more interesting way to go - that might take playtesting - would be to look at an alternate Perk that allowed substituting DX or DX-based skill for ST in the contests to resist the effects of some of the various grappling maneuvers.

No. Just no.

Being more skilled might allow you to win against a stronger foe, but I don't want to see 'having high DX' suffice. That is completely against the direction GURPS tried to take with grappling, i.e. that it was a way for a stronger combatant to really get the value of his ST into play.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Or just dispense with the Perk completely (again, free associating here rather than stating agreement or suggesting this is the right way to go) and always allow skill to add to ST for all, without the Perk, and just limit the Perk to the ST/DX tradeoff.

I don't like that, in that it takes away my ability to distinguish between a skilled all-around fighter who is strong enough for grappling and thus does not need this Perk against typical foes, and the dedicated grappler who has it to allow him to compete against larger men.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

My equally unscientific guess is you're right. Grappling contests seem to either go "attack/failed defense --> death spiral" or into perhaps a better matched series of attack/successful defense --> try it in reverse until someone succeeds.

I've got a concept in the background here that I've bounced off of Sean and Peter...we'll see how it plays out.

Well, this isn't just grappling contests. Those are balanced enough, I feel. This is specifically Arm Lock and Leg Grapple, which are apparently at +4 relative to all other locks.

Of course, an Arm Lock is hard to escape, but this applies as soon as you've failed an Active Defence. And a Choke Hold is not that easy to escape easy, yet that's effectively at +4 compared to an Arm Lock, which makes the Quick Contest several times likelier to go the grapplee's way.

Should a Choke Hold be several times easier to escape once it's in place than an Arm Lock?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Should a Choke Hold be several times easier to escape once it's in place than an Arm Lock?

My own experience suggests "yes." Some of that, though, is at what point you are considered to have applied the hold or lock.

Edit: to go from 'locked' to 'broken arm' is less than a second for (say) an arm bar or shoulder lock. To vibrate a wrist lock and break the wrist a moment's 'pop' of speed and effort. A well applied choke takes 5-15x as long just due to oxygen reserves.

For an Arm Lock (and I'm thinking arm bar as the archetype here), once the arm is 'in position,' you're often putting your entire weight onto just their arm. It's nearly inevitable; almost all (not ALL, but almost all) of the defenses involve NOT allowing the other guy to get you in that place; once control over the arm is established, hyperextension and either a submission or a broken arm is almost inevitable.

For a choke hold, first you have to get a secure grip on the neck; once it's in place, you have five to fifteen seconds before you black out if it's for your life. A totally clean choke hold, of course, especially one that is both a trachea and a blood choke, is both very painful and works very fast. But again, they're hard to secure...and there's much more 'wiggle room' to turn your head, pop your chin into a corner of something, loosen up the triangle, or whatever.

The real question in my mind is around what the conditions have to be before you can get that 'perfect' (or 'perfect enough to make the guy give up') hold. GURPS makes this happen in, usually, only a few rolls. Grappling matches can go on for what seems like forever...and this isn't just a bunch of skill-8 dudes failing everything.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Well, this isn't just grappling contests. Those are balanced enough, I feel.

Balance isn't my issue. Timing is. Grappling contests are, in my opinion, anywhere from 5-50x too fast to resolve in terms of how long it should take two skilled competitors to achieve their goal.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

My own experience suggests "yes." Some of that, though, is at what point you are considered to have applied the hold or lock.

For an Arm Lock (and I'm thinking arm bar as the archetype here), once the arm is 'in position,' you're often putting your entire weight onto just their arm. It's nearly inevitable; almost all (not ALL, but almost all) of the defenses involve NOT allowing the other guy to get you in that place; once control over the arm is established, hyperextension and either a submission or a broken arm is almost inevitable.

Yes. I'm with you here.

I just think that rolling a successful Arm Lock and the opponent failing to defend is not necessarily the same as having successfully established the lock with the full benefits instantly.

With nearly any technique that I've seen (note, though, that I probably have very low skill), there is a window of opportunity between grabbing the opponent's arm and before the lock is completed.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The real question in my mind is around what the conditions have to be before you can get that 'perfect' (or 'perfect enough to make the guy give up') hold. GURPS makes this happen in, usually, only a few rolls. Grappling matches can go on for what seems like forever...and this isn't just a bunch of skill-8 dudes failing everything.

Very true.

With both of them grappling, this can be emulated in GURPS. But if one them chooses to apply an Arm Lock after a successful Parry, that carries no risk beyond any other attack and if he succeeds, he's won.

When I thought that the fighter applying it had a +4 bonus for the Quick Contest, that was fine. In going straight for a lock instead of grappling first, he had a slightly less chance of keeping hold, but as soon as the opponent failed to break free, his odds were as bad as if he had been grappled rapidly deterioated with every passing second.

But now that I find out that he apparently has a +9 bonus, this essentially means that the Arm Lock is much more useful any other grappling move. Indeed, having Arm Lock at Wrestling+4 (or+6) seems like a sine qua non of all grappling characters and grappling between two men of equal skill will usually last only a few turns.