Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Streacer

I suppose my disagreement with this fluff interpretation...

I will admit taking issue with this characterization. My attempt at illumination of why ST based mechanics have at least a good run at the truth is not fluff, but experience. I've grappled bigger and smaller people than I am, as well as one or two people of equal size but much smaller.

Power Grappling is more or less correct as described. If you feel that only after you've gotten some skill does this make sense...fine. Only allow it after a PC has spent 10pts on grappling skills (Judo, Wrestling, Sumo). At that point, you've either spent 4/4/2 in, say, Judo/Wrestling/Sumo, or more likely either 8/2 in Judo/Wrestling (for the parry and throw and finish on the ground set) or 8/2 in Wrestling/Judo (for the ground fighters who also bend folks).

The only thing that I'd probably do if you're really making maximum use of Power Grappling is perhaps not allow certain things. Arm/Wrist and Leg locks as described are DX based, almost entirely. If you base it on ST, you're probably doing Wrench Limb (often very successfully).

Other than that, and after chatting offline with another well regarded GURPSer who has also actually done MMA with grappling and striking, I'm back to the Perk is fine. If you have an issue with it, recall that while some Perks are taught from the git-go in a style, many can only be acquired after 10pts spent in particular skills.

Even if you say grappling is taken at 100hours per point, that's still 1000 hours of training here. Two hours per day, every other day, for four years. Eight years by RAW at 200hrs/pt. Learning to make maximum use of your ST while at the same time a DX11 fighter picks up Wrestling-13 and Judo-10 (8/2 pts respectively) doesn't seem game breaking at any normal human ST.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The only thing that I'd probably do if you're really making maximum use of Power Grappling is perhaps not allow certain things. Arm/Wrist and Leg locks as described are DX based, almost entirely. If you base it on ST, you're probably doing Wrench Limb (often very successfully).

However, the game-benefit of allowing ST-for-DX substitutions mainly affects these techniques. Pins and takedowns already offer the option of basing it on ST and the other damage-dealing options are ST-based.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Other than that, and after chatting offline with another well regarded GURPSer who has also actually done MMA with grappling and striking, I'm back to the Perk is fine. If you have an issue with it, recall that while some Perks are taught from the git-go in a style, many can only be acquired after 10pts spent in particular skills.

Even if you say grappling is taken at 100hours per point, that's still 1000 hours of training here. Two hours per day, every other day, for four years. Eight years by RAW at 200hrs/pt. Learning to make maximum use of your ST while at the same time a DX11 fighter picks up Wrestling-13 and Judo-10 (8/2 pts respectively) doesn't seem game breaking at any normal human ST.

Certainly not game-breaking, no. Nor unrealistic.

But you're forgetting that Power Grappling does two things. One is knowing how to make maximum use of your ST. The other is knowing how to make maximum use of skill, regardless of your ST.

I want skilled grapplers to have the option of both of those, certainly, but I feel they should be thematically distinct.

What I'm wondering is whether each of them is powerful enough to be a Perk in their own right or whether I should add an extra benefit to them if they are to stand seperately, something more thematically appropriate. What do you think? And what benefits should I add, if any are needed?

[Streacer]

Can you elaborate on how such a technique would mechanically work?

Power Grapple
Hard
Default: prerequisite skill-5.
Prerequisite: Any unarmed grappling skill; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

You’re adept at applying force precisely when wrestling. You may opt to base normally DX-based grappling rolls on ST. Roll against Power Grapple. You can use another technique as your grappling move; see Using Techniques Together (p. 64) to find effective skill level.

Following the example of Counterattack technique gives something along those lines. Of course, the skill-based strength bonus is still uncapped so the basic problem I have remains, but if people want to allow it the GM can now expand the range of character levels before this perk becomes a "must have" for every grappler with any training.

I will admit taking issue with this characterization.

I'm sorry, we must have different definitions of 'fluff' ... to me it is simply the narrative explanation of what/why is happening, as opposed to the number-crunching aspects of game mechanics. Not meant to be denigrating.

Learning to make maximum use of your ST

The issue I have is not them bringing "their strength" to bear, it is that their skill level (a completely independent variable) gives them strength and therefore eliminates any gaming drawbacks to having a trade-off. This is why active defense and to-hit still benefit from the perk, despite the obvious attempt to prevent that by specifically excluding them. A significantly weaker fighter can get large benefits from "power grappling" via unlimited strength gains. Wrestling caps at +2 strength ordinarily, but this allows +10 and more. Giving the tiny woman with ST 7 and Judo at DX+20 a ST 27 score so she can brutalize Brock Lesner, based on her ability to "utilize her ST effectively" just feels... wrong. (If she was using skillful techniques I wouldn't care, which is what Arm Lock and such are supposed to do). Not to mention, I'm far more concerned with the scalability of these generic rules rather than its implications in a realistic low-point campaign. I'm sure you can envision a cinematic MA game with skill levels beyond 13.

Given that a normal human being has ST/DX 10 each and skill level 13 is considered within the norm for "ordinary folks", I contend that a perk which is mathematically superior for any character with at least DX+3 to take is no longer a stylistic characterization tool with minor/occasional benefits (perk), regardless of its realism.


Is this because everyone else reads "ST-based Judo, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling roll" while I read "ST-based Judo, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling roll"? We're substituting a skill for an attribute and nobody sees potential for mishaps.



Ok to be fair, my examples have devolved to the point where DX and ST are irrelevant and a single skill reigns supreme, so saying that defense/to-hit benefit is no longer right. But they are certainly not harmed since this perk makes attributes little more than point sinks.

[DouglasCole]

I'm going to forget the entire rest of the discussion for a moment and discuss an example, using Arm Lock, noting where Power Grappling may or may not apply.

A and B are fighting. A attacks B, and B rolls, and makes, a Judo or Wrestling based Parry. Power Grappling (hereafter PG) does NOT apply, since it's an active defense.

B now has the opportunity to do something nasty to A. He may attempt to use Arm Lock against A, by rolling against DX-based Arm Lock, which can be based on Judo or Wrestling. Again, PG does NOT apply, since the description on p. B403 explicitly says "...roll vs Judo or Wrestling to hit." [Emphasis mine].

Next turn, assuming the Lock succeeds, A may attempt to Break Free. This is a Quick Contest of ST, with fairly mongo bonuses for B if he's got A pinned or is grappling A with both hands, AND +4 because it's an Arm Lock. Yow.

However, let's say A has Power Grappling...a ha! In this case, instead of just ST, he may make a ST-based skill roll instead...basically 'floating the bonus' from his skill to his ST. In effect, his Judo or Wrestling skill helps him fight the lock; the more he knows, the better he can leverage his ST to break out. And yet, he's got to overcome up to a +14 bonus (Pinned plus Arm Lock), so you're going to have to be MUCH stronger AND much more skilled before this is remotely an issue.

Where it makes things more interesting is when B might want to do a ONE HANDED Arm Lock (Martial Arts p. 116). You still can't leverage PG to initiate the lock, because that's a to hit roll, so we're safe there. however, when the next turn comes around, and you're making your contest of ST at ST/2. You lose effectively ALL the bonuses unless you've got the guy Pinned. In reality, this means that normal people can never put on a one-handed Arm Lock; or rather, it's fairly easy to escape, since once you've got the lock (and you'd better be good enough to absorb the extra one hand penalties, and that's DX all the way) even a fairly strong person (ST12) will be even-up against a weakling of ST6, and at a significant disadvantage against ST10-12.

Now, if you have Power Grappling, the rules as written seem to suggest that you can float your skill bonus over to ST, making someone who spends to DX+4 get SOME benefit for those thousands of hours of training to his Arm Lock skill with one hand. If you wanted to, however, you could say the bonus adds to ST FIRST, and is then halved for one hand...a very defensible GM call. So in order to BREAK EVEN at a one-hand lock, you need ST12, DX+8 in Wrestling. With DX10, that's 32 points in Wrestling, 20pts in ST. To break EVEN with a ST10 guy.

For the opposite case, on the offensive, with two hands and Arm Lock, the bonuses are so extreme that PG will mainly be used to add to the ST roll to break free. In THIS case, it goes over 1:1, but you need enough ST and skill to overcome a routine +9 bonus here, PLUS overcoming any superior ST of the other guy. In this case, PG only makes it less than futile to even attempt.

I'm going to ask for help in coming up with examples of when you make each type of roll. The second concept in the PG description, allowing a ST-based skill roll to sub for Breaking Free, is not just a non-problem, I think it's great, and a good time where skill SHOULD be useful in helping out ST.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Next turn, assuming the Lock succeeds, A may attempt to Break Free. This is a Quick Contest of ST, with fairly mongo bonuses for B if he's got A pinned or is grappling A with both hands, AND +4 because it's an Arm Lock. Yow.

This isn't a quick contest of ST. It's a quick contest of your ST or Arm Lock against your opponents ST or HT.

[DouglasCole]

Another example. I'm not doing this to necessarily prove a point, but my knowledge of the grappling rules isn't as good as the HTH and esp the firearm rules, so examples help me.

Let's again take two fighters, A and B, and this time, the strategy will be that B wants to either respond to an attack by A or initiate one by going for a takedown, at that point try and flip him over onto his face, and from there apply a Choke Hold. Even as I start, I'm not sure how to model the 'flip him over' thing, but let's see how it goes.

A attacks B, and B attempts to parry. Since this is an Active Defense, PG doesn't help. Assuming A fails, and B parries, it's now B's turn. Note that high DX-based skill is the only thing that will help here with the Parry, or else a high DX+HT for Dodge.

Now B goes to attack A, using Judo or Wrestling to initiate a grapple. This is a To Hit roll; PG doesn't help you. Let's assume that B gets lucky, and scores a "Hit." A is now Grappled.

Back to A. He may attempt to grapple back, at -4 to DX because he's already grappled by someone else, or he may try to break free. PG doesn't help him grapple back; the return grip is an Attack and to-hit roll. If A has PG, then it WILL help him break B's grip; he'll need this because if B's grabbin' with both hands, he's at +5 to this contest; effectively A is at -4 to hit with a grapple (based on DX), and -5 to break free with ST. PG only helps the second case, and that extra skill to ST is needed to fight the grapple. Let's say B attempts to Break Free, but fails - but clearly, the defender has a much needed use for PG here, to get whatever bonuses his training grants to resist the grapple.

Back to B, who now wants to do a Takedown (p. B370), which is a Quick Contest of ST, DX, or the best Grappling skill. What the PG Perk means for either is that rather than ST, DX (if the grapple skills are lower than raw DX), or Skill, it becomes a contest of ST+Skill Bonus or DX+Skill bonus, ST, or DX (in case his skill is negative, but honestly, if you have Power Grappling, it's because it's not). So really, this means that if you are Strong, you use your skill to slam the dude to the ground. If you're Dextrous, you use your skill to trip him up. [1] On the resistance end, you can skillfully move (DX) or just push back in the right way. I don't see an issue here.

OK, so B goes for the Takedown, and let's assume A goes thump. ("...and they made a very satisfying thump when they hit the floor!"); Not only that, but B drops with him and begins Ground Fighting. A is likely Lying Down, while B is probably the equivalent of Kneeling or Sitting. (p. B551)

A has gone thump, and it's his turn. I'm not sure if B loses his grapple in the takedown; given my own training, I'm going to assume not. So A is grappled (at -4) and lying down (-4 attack, -3 defense) unless he's got a Ground Fighting technique (a good investment). Grappling back is a hit roll that will be at -8 and PG doesn't apply. Breaking free is a contest of ST at +5 for B...PG will apply here for both fighters, and is likely the best option for A, but we shouldn't expect it to work well.

Back to B, who will try and flip to rear mount position. I'd say this would be resolved as a QC of Grappling skill or ST vs Grappling Skill or ST, and PG WOULD apply here. A is at +4 because he controls the grapple, but I'd say that's all. Ironically, going for a Pin is almost EASIER; this is a direct contest of ST, and PG does apply. [2]

Let's say B is successful, and moves around to A's rear. A is deeply boned, here. He has the same choices (Attack at a massive penalty, or Break Free) as before, suffers additional penalties for Posture, and is now attacking an enemy behind him. I'm not even going to bother with A's options; he's bordering on Crispy Toast right now.

B goes for the Choke Hold, and since the roll to apply the hold is a to hit roll as per Martial Arts, PG doesn't apply. A can roll vs Grappling Skill -2 to Parry, at a penalty for Posture. PG again doesn't apply. If the attack succeeds, PG will apply in task resolution, as it should.

It seems to me here that the benefit of PG is to allow a normal-ST person who's also a skilled grappler to have a chance in HELL at thwarting the moves of just about ANYONE who successfully lands a Grapple on him.

On offense, the bonuses for successfully achieving the status of Grapple (and even more so Pin) render the PG bonuses almost superfluous.





[1] In this case, size and weight can matter. I would not be against converting weight in LBS to an equivalent ST score using the Basic Lift formula. Apply the delta to account for this as a bonus to the heavier fighter in the QC

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

This isn't a quick contest of ST. It's a quick contest of your ST or Arm Lock against your opponents ST or HT.

I will look in Martial Arts, but the text in basic (p. 371) under Break Free is very explicit: "If you are Grappled, you cannot move away until you break free by winning a Quick Contest of ST"

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

This isn't a quick contest of ST. It's a quick contest of your ST or Arm Lock against your opponents ST or HT.

More specifically, A's attempt to Break Free is what I said it was. B's applying damage to A on the next turn is what YOU said it was.

...and in the Power Grappling case, I'll assume that what you're left with is ST (plus any ST bonuses for Wrestling), ST-based Skill, or DX-based Arm Lock vs ST-based Skill or HT (if they both have PG).

I'm unsure about the DX-based Arm Lock, but my rationale is that ST-based Arm Lock is called Wrench Limb.

[Streacer]

allowing a ST-based skill roll to sub for Breaking Free, is not just a non-problem, I think it's great, and a good time where skill SHOULD be useful in helping out ST.

I agree, I did mention before that I think strength rolls should receive (finite) skill/technique bonuses, kinda like Basic Set wrestling provides. Actually I tend to think the rolls to break free are just a tad harsh in general, they're fine for Basic Set grappling but when you consider that Locks inflict passive damage and allow devastating advanced moves it gets a bit messier.


I think it's safe to say that if you manage to get yourself both pinned and put into a lock you should probably lose the fight, perks and technique bonuses being irrelevant at that level of domination. For that to even happen in the first place you have to already be weaker and/or less skilled.

For the one-handed grappling, I'm really not sure how you concluded that the skill level should be halved... it seems like it would just be ST based skill applied to a half-value ST. More pertinently, your example reinforces my point that Power Grappling removes the need for any real strength investment. Why would a dedicated grappler buy 2 ST for 20 points, when they could buy 5 levels of grappling instead and get it anyway. So you just need DX+5 levels of skill at normal ST 10, (10/2 + 5 = 10, breaking even) to have a 50/50 shot of keeping an average adult in a one-handed arm lock, with NO special bonuses, at a total investment of 21 points (including the perk). That's basically the same cost as being slightly above average intellectually. As a side note, I think you can apply the arm lock with 2 hands normally and then release one hand later as a free action.

You are right about PG not directly helping defenses/to-hit, however the PG user should always have the highest practical skill because there is no real incentive to invest in anything else! He doesn't need ST (see example 1) or DX (for 1 skill?).

PG does not help with the ST contest to resist your opponent from breaking free... so it does have some utility there... however because skill is so much cheaper and does help with your own escapability (as well as everything else) it is still a far stronger play to max out skill, try to land the first/best grapple, and know that you have the best chance to break free if you need to. At lowish/harsh realism skill levels the +5 for 2 hands and such will hold, but because the PG bonus is both uncapped AND increases rapidly, any serious grappling adventurer/warrior will very quickly reach the point of breaking free with trivial ease, and never be caught.


PG may be realistic, and its bonuses may make real world sense. But at 1 point it is not giving up ANYTHING of serious value that would justify a "tradeoff" for the advantage in game. Take a look at Ground Guard (the other main grappling perk) and try to justify the two costing the same. Or think of a reason why a decently skilled grappler wouldn't bother take Power Grappling. It doesn't matter what your size or strength or preferred style is, or even who your opponents are going to be. Any grappler is going to want high skill (same as any other specialty), and anyone with high skill is going to get massive benefits from Power Grappling.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Streacer

For the one-handed grappling, I'm really not sure how you concluded that the skill level should be halved... it seems like it would just be ST based skill applied to a half-value ST.

I believe my post stated that I agree with you, but that my implication was that gave too much boost to skill. Adding ST to Skill, and then halving, makes it more symmetrical with the "your ST is halved in the QC" that comes along with the basic 'one hand grappling' stuff.

More pertinently, your example reinforces my point that Power Grappling removes the need for any real strength investment. Why would a dedicated grappler buy 2 ST for 20 points, when they could buy 5 levels of grappling instead and get it anyway.

You keep comparing the wrong thing, here, which is always a degenerate case of massive skill investiture that is both an edge case and not really the point. Yes, pretty much skill trumps all, and if you invest in PG, since all of a sudden skill gets added to ST, it trumps all even more. Since the cases I've seen in my couple examples are where I think an expert grappler SHOULD get a big bonus to his effective ST based on his skill, this bothers me not at all.

And though the Perk is only 1 point, please do note that unless the GM gives his say-so, it requires first a 10-point investment in Aikido, Aikijutsu, Judo, Jujutsu, or Sambo (I might have missed one or two) skills if you're a stylist, or 20pts in generic melee combat skills if you're not, before you're allowed to buy it.

If the argument is "I can create a one-trick wonder that's ST10, DX-10, Power Grappling [1], and Wrestling-25 [60] for 61 points, and he'll womp the crap out of any equivalent 60pt character that DARES spend 61 points in any other way," I stipulate that this is true and add I don't care. GURPS isn't designed to foil purposefully degenerate builds, and it's the GM's job to do so. I would certainly reject this character were it presented to me.

You are right about PG not directly helping defenses/to-hit, however the PG user should always have the highest practical skill because there is no real incentive to invest in anything else! He doesn't need ST (see example 1) or DX (for 1 skill?).

I think this falls into the 'degenerate build' argument. Yes, you wish to maximize your skill, but you may also want to carry gear, have decent HP, and hit hard with weapons as well. Likewise, if you have more than five skills you care about, DX rapidly becomes the better overall buy, and then you're OUT of the degenerate 'only skill' case, with a reasonable balanced character where the benefits of PG are more in line with "occasionally you get a benefit from moving skill to ST," and "you ALWAYS suck less at defending against someone who grapples you once they make that first successful roll and you miss your Parry or he crit succeeds and you don't get one."

PG does not help with the ST contest to resist your opponent from breaking free... so it does have some utility there...

It doesn't? I'd assume skill adds to ST here if it's an option, both on attack and defense.

PG may be realistic, and its bonuses may make real world sense. But at 1 point it is not giving up ANYTHING of serious value that would justify a "tradeoff" for the advantage in game.

Trade-off? It's not a trade-off, and isn't meant that way. Perks are effectively "you can ignore one special case rule that normally gets in your way" in many cases. In this case, for non-degenerate builds, it allows skill to apply to ST in a few ways that actually work out, in my opinion and observation through training and practice, closer to how real grappling tends to work than the rules currently show.

Without it, the typical grappling match would be over in about ten second or less, every time. Once you get a capital-G GURPS Grapple on someone, their life is pretty harsh from that point on.