Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Bruno

As you aren't hitting anyone with it, grabbing anyone with it, or parrying with it, yes.

I actually disagree with this, since the DX roll in question here is not a use of an ability to grapple, and I don't see how ST helps.

This is part of a Ready maneuver, and while I'd mitigate penalties based on having Pinned (big, maybe total removal of penalties), or Grappled (partial removal), your opponent, I'd mostly adjudicate this as something part of a combat maneuver.

[Streacer]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I guess my predisposition, and I'd be willing ot be talked out of it, is that one point means "character is aware how to use their size in fights" and is a natural outgrowth of living a life of Big.

I like the idea of this perk and can accept this argument, but I don't feel that Power Grappling as written reflects it at all.

In my previous posts I have turned DX into ST to illustrate the basic problem that I see, but we can easily take it to the logical extreme and say that instead of buying ST+skill, we simply buy 5 levels of skill. In this way we use Power Grappling to end up with extremely high "strength" for grappling purposes without actually being strong at all, or even the stronger fighter. We have the highest skill level, and have also turned the Wrestling +1/+2 skill bonus into an uncapped bonus based on any of the 3 grappling skills.


One of my brainstorms both removes the skill aspect which Icelander seems to object to, and reinforces the "bigger guys throw their weight around" concept that you and I seem to agree on as being logical.

Power Grappling: +1 strength in all regular or quick contests to do with grappling if you outweigh your opponent. If you are also stronger, add the difference of your unmodified strength scores. Double this bonus if your Size Modifier exceeds that of your opponent.

Completely untested, but it seems to make more sense to me on paper. Decent start?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Streacer

One of my brainstorms both removes the skill aspect which Icelander seems to object to, and reinforces the "bigger guys throw their weight around" concept that you and I seem to agree on as being logical.

The thing is, high ST really does make the moves more likely to be successful, so I don't have much issue with basing some rolls off of ST. The cry "stop MUSCLING IT!" in class is so often repeated that it's just the natural way to do stuff.

once you back off, and learn the skill based on DX, adding the ST component to it makes sense to me.

of course, maybe this means Power Grappling isn't a Perk. it's just how people fight:

1. The ST delta between the two should definitely apply. Or maybe you can apply as many levels of delta-ST as you have levels of skill or something, to represent that there ARE right and wrong ways to have superior ST boost your move.

2. The size modifier thing, as well as weight, should apply to all of this stuff, unless you're deliberately targeting only a body part (working on a giant's finger might be like a Leg Lock or something)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The thing is, high ST really does make the moves more likely to be successful, so I don't have much issue with basing some rolls off of ST. The cry "stop MUSCLING IT!" in class is so often repeated that it's just the natural way to do stuff.

once you back off, and learn the skill based on DX, adding the ST component to it makes sense to me.

Makes sense to me, too, but what doesn't make sense is that the same Perk covers replacing DX with ST and adding a bonus for high skill.

Both are logical traits for a highly trained athlete in a grappling style to have, but it's easy enough to imagine a character whose concept only calls for one of these two.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Makes sense to me, too, but what doesn't make sense is that the same Perk covers replacing DX with ST and adding a bonus for high skill.

Both are logical traits for a highly trained athlete in a grappling style to have, but it's easy enough to imagine a character whose concept only calls for one of these two.

I'm not sure I buy it. You're replacing DX with ST in both cases; just what you're lending your experience to changes when it's a skill substitution.

I need to think on it more. My only issues with ST, Weight, and SM usually revolve around the mastery of DX, but there are a lot of rules, including Power Grappling, that make up for this AND make a lot of sense.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Makes sense to me, too, but what doesn't make sense is that the same Perk covers replacing DX with ST and adding a bonus for high skill.

Both are logical traits for a highly trained athlete in a grappling style to have, but it's easy enough to imagine a character whose concept only calls for one of these two.

Perhaps because Power Grappling is ½ of Attribute Substitution, so they had to fill the other ½ with something.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I'm not sure I buy it. You're replacing DX with ST in both cases; just what you're lending your experience to changes when it's a skill substitution.

No, you aren't replacing DX with ST in both cases.

The cases I think that are not the same effect at all is when you are replacing ST with ST-based skill. This is a case where the utility of the Perk is not connected to your ST score at all. It actually helps the weak, but skilled akidoka make up for his lack of ST with his skill.

Which is fine, I guess, but I'd prefer that be a different Perk.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Perhaps because Power Grappling is ½ of Attribute Substitution, so they had to fill the other ½ with something.

Not all Attribute Substitutions are born equal. In some cases, I wouldn't allow them at all, and in others, even a limited effect is useful enough to justify a Perk.

I rather think that Power Grappling would still be useful even if it only allowed the ST for DX substitution and I think that a Cunning Grappler Perk that allowed ST for ST-based skill substitutions would also be useful enough.

But if I'm convinced that it is not, I'd prefer to add a minor benefit to both of them than bundle them together. They don't seem to be thematically connected enough for that.

[Streacer]

The thing is, high ST really does make the moves more likely to be successful, so I don't have much issue with basing some rolls off of ST. The cry "stop MUSCLING IT!" in class is so often repeated that it's just the natural way to do stuff.

I suppose my disagreement with this fluff interpretation is that I view the ST-based uses of grappling to be the various contests and times you can substitute in ST, such as in Arm Lock where you can base damage on either a ST roll or your Arm Lock technique, which fits the stereotype Strong vs Skilled better... it's probably fair to add skill/technique bonuses to some of these rolls also. By simply adding both together you fundamentally change the interaction instead of focusing on "bigger brute manhandling his opponent physically" which is the direction I'd like to go with the changes I've considered.

In terms of crunch, I still maintain that it is worth significantly more than a 1 point perk. The argument can be made that all grappling should rely on strength by default, but this would require so much testing and balancing that I personally won't try to implement it as a house rule. If I were to go this route though, instead of a perk I would probably utilize a technique-to-use-with-other-techniques along the lines of Counterattack, essentially upping the cost to bring into line better.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Streacer

In terms of crunch, I still maintain that it is worth significantly more than a 1 point perk. The argument can be made that all grappling should rely on strength by default, but this would require so much testing and balancing that I personally won't try to implement it as a house rule. If I were to go this route though, instead of a perk I would probably utilize a technique-to-use-with-other-techniques along the lines of Counterattack, essentially upping the cost to bring into line better.

Can you elaborate on how such a technique would mechanically work?