Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Icelander, your posts remind of the two big differences in biologists, lumpers and splitters. Those that tend to call a new fossil a member of an existing species, and those that like to split them into new species.

You sir are a splitter. No problem, just remember that many of us are lumpers. :)

Ironically, in the thread previous to this I'm arguing that certain skills are close enough to each other that their defaults should be closer.

So it's not so much that I necessarily want to split everything or lump everything, but more that I place a great deal of value on logical and consistent groupings.

[Streacer]

I have recently come to a similar conclusion that Power Grappling is probably too strong for a 1 point perk.

The benefit to dexterity is to-hit and active defense, but since ST costs 10 fewer character points you recover 2.5 skill levels by switching DX to ST and buying up skill, which nets +0.75 parry, +1.5 to-hit, and otherwise +3.5 once grappled.

I gets even weirder depending how you interpret "grappling rolls" if you utilize Judo and its ability to substitute a skill roll for practically any close combat DX check. The entire DX attribute becomes largely irrelevant in the context of unarmed combat... obviously a guy with a gun across the street should still win.


I like the idea of the perk and I've brainstormed some concepts to nerf it a bit, but this whole thing is untested. So before I try to fix something that isn't broken: what is the obvious mistake I'm making?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Streacer

I have recently come to a similar conclusion that Power Grappling is probably too strong for a 1 point perk.

The benefit to dexterity is to-hit and active defense, but since ST costs 10 fewer character points you recover 2.5 skill levels by switching DX to ST and buying up skill, which nets +0.75 parry, +1.5 to-hit, and otherwise +3.5 once grappled.

I gets even weirder depending how you interpret "grappling rolls" if you utilize Judo and its ability to substitute a skill roll for practically any close combat DX check. The entire DX attribute becomes largely irrelevant in the context of unarmed combat... obviously a guy with a gun across the street should still win.


I like the idea of the perk and I've brainstormed some concepts to nerf it a bit, but this whole thing is untested. So before I try to fix something that isn't broken: what is the obvious mistake I'm making?

One has to be very, very skilled to defeat someone a lot bigger and stronger than you are at grappling. Once you're in close combat, especially if he outweighs you by a lot, you have to be VERY fast, and VERY good.

I know you were being hyperbolic, but of course the guy "across the street" isn't in close combat, and ST-based power grappling isn't relevant.

There are circumstances where the DX guy has enough advantage, even in a ground-fight, that high-ST high mass guy can lose. I at 165lbs was doing pretty well against someone 6'5" and 250lbs for a while...if we weren't doing position grappling he'd have been toast quickly (he was untrained, I knew way more submissions than he did); but we were just doing positions, and eventually he was able to bring his weight to bear...and then no amount of skill in the world (because I was limited to positional movement) was going to get him off me.

[Streacer]

That's absolutely true. The "problem" (debatable) is that not only does the strong guy have this significant advantage, but he paid 1 point for it. Other 1 point perks are things like Iron Hands or Ground Guard which I hope you will agree are significantly less useful. The ST guy also has nice utility in striking with higher HP, damage, and BL for times where Karate or low tech equipment are needed.

From a character concept standpoint: between two equally skilled opponents, of course the larger and stronger should win. This was entirely true of most historical warriors across all cultures. But in typical game terms, the larger and stronger person should have had to pay more (higher level), or else what's the incentive to play a tiny 70s-cliche judoka?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Streacer

From a character concept standpoint: between two equally skilled opponents, of course the larger and stronger should win. This was entirely true of most historical warriors across all cultures. But in typical game terms, the larger and stronger person should have had to pay more (higher level), or else what's the incentive to play a tiny 70s-cliche judoka?

Well, since ST and skill are orthogonal, the larger and stronger person does have to pay more.

And even if you don't count the uses of the skill that you can't make ST-based, skill is cheaper than ST too.

If the strongman grappler focuses on raising ST, rather than skill or DX, they'll be able to do terrible things to you...if they get their hands on you. But they won't be good at landing the attack in the first place, and won't have active defenses. Whereas the highly-skilled Judoka will be able to land grapples easily and parry (potentially denying the strongman the chance to grapple at all), and also be very good at the rolls to accomplish things in the grapple despite lacking ST.

[Streacer]

Except that from what I can figure, turning DX into ST + Skill is still a net gain across the board for defenses, to-hit, and of course after-grapple.

I suppose there are probably break points at high levels where the extra basic speed/move is a significant advantage, or at very low levels where putting everything into skill at the exclusion of either ST or DX would be best, and of course in a broad enough game dexterity has other skills and uses (we are focusing on unarmed grappling here which skews perspective). But at the very least these would be specific situations, not Generic scalable rules.


In the unusual situation of grappling compared to normal shooting/striking combat, once you do land a hit you don't need to worry about it any more. The ST guy will break free with trivial ease, while the technical guy is completely boned.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Streacer

Except that from what I can figure, turning DX into ST + Skill is still a net gain across the board for defenses, to-hit, and of course after-grapple.

Well, obviously. DX isn't a good investment if you're optimizing one skill. It's also especially not a good investment if you're trying to build a super-skilled but weak grappler taking advantage of Power Grappling.

Buying up DX isn't the trait of the super Judoka, it's a trait of the guy with lots of non-cross-defaulting DX-based skills.

Originally Posted by Streacer

In the unusual situation of grappling compared to normal shooting/striking combat, once you do land a hit you don't need to worry about it any more. The ST guy will break free with trivial ease, while the technical guy is completely boned.

What, the ST guy's ST+2 or ST-based skill is way higher than the skilled guy's ST-based skill? Only if skilled-guy is either underpowered or not actually skilled-guy but rather fast-guy trying to pass.

[Streacer]

Well, obviously. DX isn't a good investment if you're optimizing one skill.

Granted, and in a full-fledged campaign with dozens of other skills it's probably not an issue. Doesn't change the fact that for a single perk this is an extraordinary benefit. The better argument might be that grappling should always default to ST if it makes more sense, and give a perk to make a "technical fighter" or something.

What, the ST guy's ST+2 or ST-based skill is way higher than the skilled guy's ST-based skill? Only if skilled-guy is either underpowered or not actually skilled-guy but rather fast-guy trying to pass.

For every DX-ST conversion you gain net +3.5 to break free (1 ST, 2.5 skill). Note that the skilled guy gets no skill bonus to prevent the strong guy from breaking free. I'm assuming we are talking about campaign levels such that several attributes can reasonably be expected to be above normal, in a 20 point game everyone will have 10s and just some skill. But in a cinematic martial arts game, Supers with comic book Hand to Hand, or any number of other settings with adventuring-level points this becomes an issue.



It seems I'm failing to get my point across very well. I don't care to see dexterity be more important or strength unimportant. Nor do I take issue with the stylistic portrayal of Strong Man vs Skilled Guy. I am simply asserting that as written, Power Grappling perk is possibly out of proportion to other perks.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Streacer

It seems I'm failing to get my point across very well. I don't care to see dexterity be more important or strength unimportant. Nor do I take issue with the stylistic portrayal of Strong Man vs Skilled Guy. I am simply asserting that as written, Power Grappling perk is possibly out of proportion to other perks.

I get where you're going. In my experience (and a dedicated BJJ or other grappling artist might have more; we also fight using slightly diff rules) what you're seeing in GURPS is almost not worth a Perk. it's possible for a strong fighter to nearly ignore a weak but quick one.

I think what we might have to do is look for situations where, for example, the DX guy can use his weight as a lever (sitting on a guy's head) or only attack something (Arms, Wrists, or fingers) that cause a "Pin" or a successful grappling result due to pain and physiological limits that ST can't overcome.

But really, many big guys develop, even without training, an instinctive knowledge on how to use their size to best effect. I've seen Brock Lesner fight a few times (only a few), and he obviously has trained that. Woe to he who gets under him; the guy's just too big.

The guy who beat him that I saw (and who later lost in a rematch where he tried to grapple ST- and DX vs ST- and DX...and lost badly) won because he got in a very fast Grapple of Lesner's leg, and hit him with an ankle lock, which also puts a LOT of pressure on the knee. No amount of ST in the world lets you resist that sort of torsion, and Lesner tapped quickly.

I guess my predisposition, and I'd be willing ot be talked out of it, is that one point means "character is aware how to use their size in fights" and is a natural outgrowth of living a life of Big.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I guess my predisposition, and I'd be willing ot be talked out of it, is that one point means "character is aware how to use their size in fights" and is a natural outgrowth of living a life of Big.

Which I don't mind at all.

I just don't like the fact that the ability to get the most out of high skill, independent of ST, comes free with it. Power Grappling has two unrelated effects and they seem to be the sort of effects who do not necessarily have to go together in fiction or reality.