Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'

[Icelander]

The Power Grappling Perk on MA p. 51 gives the option of replacing normally DX-based 'grappling rolls' with ST-based rolls. It also allows the replacement of ST rolls with Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling bonuses with ST-based rolls against Judo, Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling.

The second benefit is straight-forward to adjudicate. A ST roll (with a possible +1 or +2) becomes a ST-based skill roll.

But the first one is tricker. What are 'grappling rolls'? Are those any rolls against grappling skills (with the caveat that the perk explicitly does not affect rolls to hit and active defences)? Any rolls you make for 'Actions after a Grapple' in MA?

In particular, are either of the following 'grappling rolls'?

a) Ready an item while grappled.
b) Rolls to inflict damage with Arm Lock or Leg Lock?

I like the Perk, but I feel that it may incorporate too many effects for one trait. For one thing, I dislike how it benefits the cliched weak, but skilled, akidoka just as much, or more, than it benefits more realistic grappling MMA fighters with ST and DX scores closer to each other.

I'm thinking of splitting it up into Power Grappling (allow substitutions of ST-based rolls for DX-based ones) and Cunning Grappler (allow ST-based skill instead of ST rolls). But that's not workable if the benefit under Power Grappling applies too seldom to be any use.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The Power Grappling Perk on MA p. 51 gives the option of replacing normally DX-based 'grappling rolls' with ST-based rolls. It also allows the replacement of ST rolls with Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling bonuses with ST-based rolls against Judo, Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling.

The second benefit is straight-forward to adjudicate. A ST roll (with a possible +1 or +2) becomes a ST-based skill roll.

But the first one is tricker. What are 'grappling rolls'? Are those any rolls against grappling skills (with the caveat that the perk explicitly does not affect rolls to hit and active defences)? Any rolls you make for 'Actions after a Grapple' in MA?

I believe it was Kromm who has mentioned before that it's intended to (basically) replace everything that's not a "to hit" or "parry" roll, if you grok my meaning. I'm apparently especially inarticulate this afternoon. EDIT: I'd actually go right back to the Basic Set to clarify what the GURPS rules mean by "grappling" - p370 uses it to refer to a state or condition, rather than "a grapple" which is a single action which initiates the state or condition of grappling (as in Actions After a Grapple). "A Grapple" seems to pretty clearly refer to that first class of forbidden actions, the "to hit" part. Which leaves everything else wide open.

The wording of the perk seems pretty clear though: (emphasis in the original, changed to bold so it's visible in the quotebox)

Originally Posted by Martial Arts

Except when rolling to hit or for an active defense, you may op to shift normally DX-based grappling rolls to ST.

Originally Posted by Icelander

In particular, are either of the following 'grappling rolls'?

a) Ready an item while grappled.

As you aren't hitting anyone with it, grabbing anyone with it, or parrying with it, yes.

Originally Posted by Icelander

b) Rolls to inflict damage with Arm Lock or Leg Lock?

Same answer, with the same explanation really.

[Bruno]

Sorry, addressing something from the second half of your post that I meant to hit above but got distracted:

Originally Posted by Icelander

I like the Perk, but I feel that it may incorporate too many effects for one trait. For one thing, I dislike how it benefits the cliched weak, but skilled, akidoka just as much, or more, than it benefits more realistic grappling MMA fighters with ST and DX scores closer to each other.

However, the guy who gets the most out of it is the cliched strong, not DeXtrous, grabby guy. Who may have DX 10, Wrestling 12, but once he gets his hands on you oh god. EDIT: All the points that Cliche the Akidoka spent on DX and high skill get dumped into ST for twice the numeric benefit after a grab is successfully initiated. In exchange for terrible chances to initiate a grab.

The cliche'd weak-but-skilled akidoka doesn't have a good ST. Being able to substitute a ST-based skill roll for straight ST on the parts that gain a benefit from Wrestling is certainly good for him, but substituting a ST-based skill roll for a DX-based skill roll for everything else is insane.

Big Slow Guy is just plain better off when he's using both features. He gets MORE benefit than Cliche, the Akidoka. Splitting it into two perks penalizes Big Slow Guy over Akidoka, when the perk is meant to benefit him over Akidoka.

Akidoka gets more out of the ST+Skill for ST part, but less out of the other part. It seems to average out to the same value - AND incidentally plays into the sister-cliche that skill can completely compensate for strength or even exceed it.

I would let Cliche the Akidoka call it another perk entirely if Power Grappling seemed to cause the player cognitive dissonance, but I wouldn't split it.

EDIT: Of course, if Cliche spent 24 points on his Judo skill, and Big Slow Guy spent 24 points on his wrestling skill, and just moved the points out of DX, he's much better off than the Skill 12 example. Power is obviously most useful when combined with accuracy.

[Bruno]

I like Big Slow Guys as a character archetype, so I think you're stuck with me babbling away in this thread. Sorry. I promise not to bring minotaurs into the discussion though.


Cliche, ST 10, DX 14, HT 12, Judo 18, Power Grappling perk.
Mr Big, ST 18, DX 10, HT 12, Wrestling 15, Power Grappling perk.

Mr Big has bad active defenses against Cliche grappling him - the Perk doesn't help him any, whereas Cliche's high skill and high DX mean that he's good at evading Mr Big's attempts to grab him (by parry and dodge) and he can burn skill on Deceptive Attack to further destroy Mr Big's defenses.

When Cliche tries to judo throw Mr Big after parrying one of his crude attempts to grab, Mr Big is in trouble, because Cliche's attack is a to-hit roll vs active defense, and neither gets the benefit of the perk. Cliche is using Mr Bigs attack against him in support of the cliche. Working As Intended.

But if Cliche tries to judo throw Mr Big from a grapple, Mr. Big becomes nigh immovable - it's a contest of Judo vs ST, DX or grappling skill, and Mr. Big gets to make a ST-based grappling skill roll due to his perk. Suddenly instead of being 18 vs 18, it's now 18 vs 22. If Cliche tries a damaging throw, it's even harder to pull off, and Mr. Big can probably ignore him as he yanks on Mr. Bigs arm. Cliche could substitute ST-based Judo, but that would be kind of stupid.

A more balanced build for Mr Big that gave him ST 17 and put those 8 extra points into Wrestling and put the two points into a bit of Brawling, or some more interesting perks, or a technique where his Power Grappling would be put to good use, like Wrench Arm, would obviously be more effective.

Obviously Cliche can use something like Wrench Arm after grappling Mr Big and get to use ST-based Judo instead of ST as the basis for his roll, but Mr Big has the advantage coming and going. Not only does Mr Big get to use a ST-based Wrestling roll (effective 22 vs 18) in his attempt to Break Free before Cliche goes for the twist, but on the Quick Contest Mr Big has a high ST to resist the twist. And Cliche's swing-crushing damage is pretty sad compared to Mr Bigs big pile of HP. Mr Big, on the other hand, has ST 18 (or 17), for a far more dangerous Swing damage, AND is preventing Cliche from escaping with ST-based-wrestling, AND is using ST-Based-Wrestling in the contest vs Cliche to twist his arm off.

[Bruno]

The far-more-normal "balanced build" MMA guys with close ST and DX scores get less benefit, but the perk really isn't meant to help them. They've got the advantage of having their character sheet better designed for fighting in the first place, unlike Cliche and Mr Big. ;) They can spend the perk elsewhere and enjoy being good at everything.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Bruno

When Cliche tries to judo throw Mr Big after parrying one of his crude attempts to grab, Mr Big is in trouble, because Cliche's attack is a to-hit roll vs active defense, and neither gets the benefit of the perk. Cliche is using Mr Bigs attack against him in support of the cliche. Working As Intended.

Side note - Kromm suggested in a PM back on 01-12-2009

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd say that since "more than twice your ST" is the limit on useful grappling, the same ought to go for Judo Throw. So a ST 6 halfling can throw up to a ST 12 man, a ST 23 ogre up to a ST 46 elephant, etc. It errs on the side of cinematic, but then most games do.

PS: As always, this is Approved For Sharing™.

This isn't so much a Harsh Realism suggestion so much as a Gentle Realism, unlike the default state of Judo throws which is more like Happily Cinematic.

A Harsh Realism suggestion might use a BL vs Wt. comparison except that weight has no character point cost and game design becomes sort of surrealist at that point (see also, fatness is a super power). If a Very Harsh Realism GM was enforcing a strict relationship between HP and weight you could do ST vs HP and tinker with the ratio to express relationship between the derived scores of BL and Wt. or just go straight to BL and Wt.

All that blathered on about, I might do (ST-2)*2 as the Harsh Realism setting, as ST-2 is the rating used for Knockback and thus makes me feel like it's less randomly chosen :D

Either way you juggle it, it starts looking better for Mr Big vs Cliche when you start clamping on constraints on the Judo-Throw-After-Parry

EDIT: old thread here

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I believe it was Kromm who has mentioned before that it's intended to (basically) replace everything that's not a "to hit" or "parry" roll, if you grok my meaning.

Do you have a cite somewhere?

Of course, it would also be awesome if His Line Editorness hisself saw fit to chime in, too. ;)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Bruno

The far-more-normal "balanced build" MMA guys with close ST and DX scores get less benefit, but the perk really isn't meant to help them. They've got the advantage of having their character sheet better designed for fighting in the first place, unlike Cliche and Mr Big. ;) They can spend the perk elsewhere and enjoy being good at everything.

Yes, but less good than the specialist who got himself a Perk that eliminates his glaring flaw.

But, very well, I'm not saying that this Perk shouldn't exist.

My point is rather that it has two seperate benefits that don't necessarily go together in fiction or reality and that each one of them is broad and useful enough to justify calling it a Perk on its own.

To me, that's a good argument for splitting up the Perk.

Note that being allowed to switch ST rolls for ST-based skill rolls is not better for strong guys than it is for weak guys. It's utility is entirely indepedent of the ST score the character has and depends solely on the skill of the character. If the character has DX+3 or more in Sumo Wrestling or Wresting, this Perk benefits him. If he has DX+1 or more in Judo, this Perk benefits him. ST is irrelevant for this second benefit.

That's why I think it would make more sense for these to be two seperate Perks, one designed for strong guys and the other designed for skilled guys. The strong and skilled guys would take both, of course.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Bruno

...
All that blathered on about, I might do (ST-2)*2 as the Harsh Realism setting, as ST-2 is the rating used for Knockback and thus makes me feel like it's less randomly chosen :D

Either way you juggle it, it starts looking better for Mr Big vs Cliche when you start clamping on constraints on the Judo-Throw-After-Parry

EDIT: old thread here

Though that breaks down on the lower end of strength.

[Flyndaran]

Icelander, your posts remind of the two big differences in biologists, lumpers and splitters. Those that tend to call a new fossil a member of an existing species, and those that like to split them into new species.

You sir are a splitter. No problem, just remember that many of us are lumpers. :)