[Spaceships] Making a setting work...

[Ejidoth]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Doesn't matter. Starting wealth doesn't consider how you got it, only that it's yours.

Mal owns, with no strings attached, a cheap or very cheap ship, yet he is Poor. A character cannot start like this in GURPS without GM fiat or without spending hundreds or thousands of points on Signature Gear or extra cash.

I've been thinking about this. I think the difference might be what Poor means.

You're wealth level in GURPS measures potential income almost more than it measures actual worth. The money you can make with a ship is generally proportionate to the size and quality - and thus cost - of the ship.

In GURPS terms, Mal has a fairly high level of Wealth with 100% of it in Signature Assets (see Spaceships 2, p. 27) for Serenity. However, he doesn't really have wealth independent of Serenity, so generally all his income comes from operating that spacecraft.

He also has either several levels of Debt to represent the costs of running the thing, or he bought Serenity as a Cheap or Very Cheap ship, which both represents how broken-down it is and how expensive it is to maintain.

Something still doesn't seem quite right, but I'm not sure what.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

Something still doesn't seem quite right, but I'm not sure what.

It's a fundamental problem with GURPS Wealth rules, for which there are several partial patches (like Debt and Independent Income and Signature Gear) and lots of house rule fixes floating around.

Wealth covers at least four separate traits - total assets, adventure useful assets (set at 20% of starting wealth), monthlyl income, and how many hours you have to devote to that monthly income. Well, maybe five traits, there's also the social components that overlap with Status and credit rating.

Bundling these together makes Wealth simple, which is nice for characters where the details don't matter a lot, but any time you try to design a character where exact economic situation is an important part of the character concept they're going to pinch you. Having a really big asset you can't or won't sell is one of the more common ones, but it's also hard to design a character who has a huge monthly income but has to work full time to earn it, or who has been pretty much broke up to now but *just* got hired for the high paying job the campaign is going to be about.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

I've been thinking about this. I think the difference might be what Poor means.

You're wealth level in GURPS measures potential income almost more than it measures actual worth. The money you can make with a ship is generally proportionate to the size and quality - and thus cost - of the ship.

In GURPS terms, Mal has a fairly high level of Wealth with 100% of it in Signature Assets (see Spaceships 2, p. 27) for Serenity. However, he doesn't really have wealth independent of Serenity, so generally all his income comes from operating that spacecraft.

He also has either several levels of Debt to represent the costs of running the thing, or he bought Serenity as a Cheap or Very Cheap ship, which both represents how broken-down it is and how expensive it is to maintain.

Something still doesn't seem quite right, but I'm not sure what.

Mal doesn't seem to function as if he's got Wealth enough to own a ship at Spaceships-type costs. If he did, he'd have much more of a social place, higher standard of living, better contacts... As it is, his 'social place' is being Inara's transport. Or 'sketchy guy who can maybe move your cargo' when he's working.

He also doesn't really function as if he's Poor. His living conditions are pretty spartan, but remember that he's traveling all the time...lower than Wealth-appropriate living standards aren't surprising. He doesn't seem to be a low-status person, except when he comes to the attention of significantly high-status people...the frontier ultra-rich or core-worlders. Mal being Average wealth seems plausible to me.

He doesn't make much if any profit on the ship, but if we assume it's a Very Cheap ship, the finance costs that he avoids by owning it outright are pretty trivial. Add in that he's probably got some sort of Unluckiness and more than a few mental and social disadvantages interfering with money-making opportunities, and his constant struggle just to keep flying is easy to explain.

[cosmicfish]

I have to say, I would generally consider any owner of a singularly large and valuable property (like a starship) to have some increased level of wealth. While they possess the starship they enjoy a higher status as a starship captain, and the continued opportunity for a high level of income through its operation - whether they choose to use it as such or not. Isn't that what Wealth provides? I would generally allow multiple levels of debt to represent the ship's expenses, and might require a couple on principle!

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Mal doesn't seem to function as if he's got Wealth enough to own a ship at Spaceships-type costs. If he did, he'd have much more of a social place, higher standard of living, better contacts... As it is, his 'social place' is being Inara's transport. Or 'sketchy guy who can maybe move your cargo' when he's working.

Not necessarily - Wealth gives your social status for free, it does not guarantee anything else. There are plenty of wealthy people in fiction and reality who are reclusive, unpopular, and boorish. Mal enjoys the status of a starship captain - uniquely tied to his wealth.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

He also doesn't really function as if he's Poor. His living conditions are pretty spartan, but remember that he's traveling all the time...lower than Wealth-appropriate living standards aren't surprising. He doesn't seem to be a low-status person, except when he comes to the attention of significantly high-status people...the frontier ultra-rich or core-worlders. Mal being Average wealth seems plausible to me.

Wealth doesn't require that you spend it, or that you spend it on appearances - Mal spends his considerable income on the ship's expenses and paying the rest of his crew, many of whom he does not technically need.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Not necessarily - Wealth gives your social status for free, it does not guarantee anything else. There are plenty of wealthy people in fiction and reality who are reclusive, unpopular, and boorish. Mal enjoys the status of a starship captain - uniquely tied to his wealth.

But he couldn't give up captaining and get a cozy Multimillionaire's job, and just live on the Serenity. He can't do big-time Multimillionaire business — he smuggles cattle. Mal's status as a ship captain never seemed to be very high — almost everyone looked down on him. Inara was the one with Status, not Mal. Inara's job on Serenity was to make the ship respectable.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I have to say, I would generally consider any owner of a singularly large and valuable property (like a starship) to have some increased level of wealth. While they possess the starship they enjoy a higher status as a starship captain, and the continued opportunity for a high level of income through its operation - whether they choose to use it as such or not. Isn't that what Wealth provides? I would generally allow multiple levels of debt to represent the ship's expenses, and might require a couple on principle!

Wealth provides more than that, or is meant to. Credit, for instance. Mal's credit rating is approximately 'Guard, throw this scoundrel out of my bank!'

It also provides less than that (though it's not meant to) by failing to factor in to job-hunts...

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Not necessarily - Wealth gives your social status for free, it does not guarantee anything else. There are plenty of wealthy people in fiction and reality who are reclusive, unpopular, and boorish. Mal enjoys the status of a starship captain - uniquely tied to his wealth.

The Advantage Wealth is a poorly documented thing, but it seems firmly established that it's intended to involve being tied into a social network.

This doesn't preclude being reclusive, unpopular, or boorish! Fiction and life both indicate that the rich don't need to be nice to be cut into the whole upper-crust deal. If you're entirely cut off from society and live alone in a mansion with gold bars in the basement, you're probably not Wealthy. If you're seldom seen to leave your penthouse apartment and seldom talk to anyone other than your stockbroker and your personal assistant, you may still be a Multimillionaire 1.

Mal does enjoy some status (and Status) as a spaceship captain (not actually a starship...the 'Verse is weird). But I'd say it's Status 0 or maybe 1, not what you'd have if you had Wealth to cover a multi-million dollar spacecraft.

(I'd say most people on the outer worlds are Poor or Struggling and have negative status.)

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Wealth doesn't require that you spend it, or that you spend it on appearances - Mal spends his considerable income on the ship's expenses and paying the rest of his crew, many of whom he does not technically need.

It is interesting to note that the only crew members who seem to serve an essential purpose are Wash and Kaylee. None of the others seem to have any technical skills relating to spacecraft operations at all. Mal and Zoe can stand watches, but if they've got any applicable abilities other than reliability and leadership it doesn't seem to come up...

Though nearly half the effective crew members are (or at least originally were) passengers. They might not be on payroll.