Can a thief lvl1 steal from other players?

[Pordobolito]

What the title says.

[MunchkinMan]

Yes. What would indicate that one couldn't?

By the way, there's a FAQ which has already answered this question for you. It's a fantastic read, so I recommend it to everyone.

[Pordobolito]

Well that comes in contradiction to the mage or the question i asked in another topic: if i am able to lose all my hand (0). Let me explain.

You said i cannot drop my hand since i have nothing to lose.
How can a thief steal since he has nothing to lose? Throwing a card is the CONDITION to throw the dice and the loss of 1 level is the EFFECT of not throwing >3.

Same happens in battle when you trow the dice to escape. The CONDITION is the monster chases you and the EFFECT is applied after you throw <5.

If a thief has nothing to lose since he remains to 1 level (or he loses the nothing he has) then he shouldn't be able to steal. If he can do it, mages should be able to charm without cards.

Therefore these statements are opposite. My approach would be either the card specifies clearly with details what happens or mages get that advantage too.

I would like a clear explanation.

P.S. Thanks a lot for the faq! I will read it all.

[Munchykin]

There is no contradiction, because you have "CONDITIONS" and "EFFECTS" confused.

"Cost" is a better word to use. You pay the cost to use an ability. Discarding your hand, is the cost to use the Wizard ability, the "Effect" is that the monster vanishes. Discarding one card, is the cost to use the Thief ability, the "Effect" is that you steal the item or lose a level, depending on the outcome.

You mention both of these and then you make a false comparison by comparing the "Cost" of the first one to the "Effect" of the second one.

If the Thief ability said to lose a level as the "Cost" of using the ability then you couldn't use it because you can't pay it. Since it is an "Effect" you must resolve it and the resolution of losing a level when you are level 1 is that you remain level 1 since the rules specifically state that you can never drop below level 1.

The cards are also made this way to preserve a bit of game balance. If Wizards could Charm things with no cards in their hand then they would be unstoppable. You can Charm as many monsters in the fight as you want even with 0 cards in your hand by just discarding 0 over and over again. The new printing of the Wizard cards will say to discard your hand and you need a minimum of 3 cards to do it.

The Thief ability balances the game a bit by allowing a low level player to even the playing field by taking away some of the higher players items to get themselves back into the game, keeping it more competitive and fun for everybody.

And 0 really is "nothing", it's not "something". While it is a value in terms of being a placeholder in our number system it's relative purpose is to denote "nothing" as relative to "something". That is to say, the only way you know you have "nothing" is to know that you don't have "something" which is being measured. They are mutually exclusive terms.

[Pordobolito]

A thief can steal though he cannot suffer the effect. He will lose 0 levels which is nothing. Same way when i have to chose: If i want to lose all my hand (suppose i have 0 cards) or all my items (suppose i have many) i can chose to lose my 0 cards hand. Since i can chose to suffer an effect that it cannot affect me. See http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=72044 to understand what i mean.

[MunchkinMan]

There is no contradiction between the Thief and the Wizard. The Thief can't initiate a theft by claiming to discard a card from his hand when he has no card in his hand. Nothing can take your character below Level 1, and since the Thief offers no proscription against it, he can steal at Level 1, even if one possible result of a theft attempt is the loss of a Level.

[Pordobolito]

Yes there's no contradiction if we suppose that wizard throws cards first and then charms the monster. Throwing after he charms is the cost of charming and therefore its the same as thief.
If the card specifies when (i cannot remember) "throw all your hand and charm the monster" instead "charm the monster but then you must throw all your hand" then i made a false reasoning.

[Munchykin]

Originally Posted by Pordobolito

Yes there's no contradiction if we suppose that wizard throws cards first and then charms the monster. Throwing after he charms is the cost of charming and therefore its the same as thief.
If the card specifies when (i cannot remember) "throw all your hand and charm the monster" instead "charm the monster but then you must throw all your hand" then i made a false reasoning.

There is no supposition to be made. Costs are paid first, before the results take effect. You discard the card or pay the cost of something before it happens. You don't charm a monster and then discard, the charm doesn't happen until you pay to do it by discarding. It's like saying that your going to see a movie and then paying for it after you saw it. If you've already got the desired result, then why pay for it? You pay first.

[Nerftw]

Originally Posted by Pordobolito

Yes there's no contradiction if we suppose that wizard throws cards first and then charms the monster. Throwing after he charms is the cost of charming and therefore its the same as thief.
If the card specifies when (i cannot remember) "throw all your hand and charm the monster" instead "charm the monster but then you must throw all your hand" then i made a false reasoning.

The thief only looses a level if he FAILS. Therefore it falls under the same category as any other bad stuff that doesn't affect you. You wouldn't argue that you can't fight a monster whose bad stuff wouldn't affect you, would you?

[Andrew Hackard]

The official answer is contained in the FAQ. You cannot choose to give up something that you do not have: you can't discard your hand if you have no cards, and you cannot choose to give up a level if you are Level 1. But you can take actions which MIGHT result in giving up something you do not have, such as when a Thief fails to steal an Item.

(Similarly, you cannot play Steal a Level or use a Vampire's race power when you are already at such a high Level that you must kill a monster to advance.)

Once again: you cannot CHOOSE to take an impossible action, but you may choose an action whose possible RESULT is an impossible action. It's a very critical difference.

(Also, your Wizard example is flawed: Wizards must now have a minimum of three cards in their hand to cast the Charm Spell.)