Can You Cheat an Item During Combat?

[Thomas]

I think everyone should be clear and in agreement on this point.

"You can't switch Items during combat. ..." See Important Note #2: Playing/Using/Switching Items During Combat in the Munchkin FAQ

What is not so clear is whether turning an item sideways is something that shouldn't be done during combat. Here is another point in the same FAQ.

Q. I'm not a Gadgeteer. What are my limitations on Complex Items?
A. You can carry as many as you can play, but you can only use one at a time. The others should be turned sideways, like any other item that you can't use (for instance, something for a Race other than your current one). This is different from Big items in every other set, where you can only carry one Big item.

This would indicate that "something for a Race other than your current one" should be sideways on the table. The rule (p. 5) indicating that at item should be turned sideways includes two kinds of reasons.

1. "items that can't help you", and
2. "extras not being worn"

Kirt seems to be referring to the second reason only, i.e. items that have been unwielded, leading to the idea that one shouldn't turn "something for a Race other than your current one" sideways during combat. I may be wrong about this, but I haven't seen anything in the rules or the FAQ that says this or that equates turning sideways only with unwielding, not also for "items that can't help you", i.e. to clearly mark what should NOT be included in your combat totals.

But this does bring up a fair point about an ambiguity that I'd started to wonder about even before reading Kirt's reply. Since there are two reasons for turning a card sideways, not just one, it seems there is no game mechanic for distinguishing between them.

For example, there seems to be no standard official way to distinguish between a sword in your hand that you get no bonus for and one stowed in your pack (since Munchkin doesn't have a "pack" in the way that Munchkin Quest does -- it is one of the differences that is sometimes missed).

Kirt's convention of restricting sideways cards to stowed/unwielded items does not seem unreasonable, but I have the impression that is a house rule.

My original question to Erik is essentially unchanged, i.e. do you agree that one can Cheat! an item into usefulness during combat (or were you indicating otherwise)? I suppose now a clarification would be about how one distinguishes this from equipping an item that was not worn or in hand?

[RevBob]

Originally Posted by Thomas

What is not so clear is whether turning an item sideways is something that shouldn't be done during combat. Here is another point in the same FAQ.

On the contrary; that's been very clearly stated in the past. You cannot wield or unwield an item during combat, unless a card specifically says you can. HMOH is one such counter-example.

Originally Posted by Thomas

...leading to the idea that one shouldn't turn "something for a Race other than your current one" sideways during combat.

Just so. In the situation where you enter combat using an item that you subsequently become unable to use - such as an Elf-only item when you lose your Elf Race - you lose the bonus from that item, but you don't turn it sideways until the combat's over. This provides the chance Andrew has noted for you to play Cheat on that item and re-enable it.

Originally Posted by Thomas

I may be wrong about this, but I haven't seen anything in the rules or the FAQ that says this or that equates turning sideways only with unwielding, not also for "items that can't help you", i.e. to clearly mark what should NOT be included in your combat totals.

The FAQ does address this, albeit obliquely, in the question about whether changing your Race or Class during combat changes your bonuses. Specifically, it notes that if you stop being an Elf, you lose the bonus from Elf-only items. Says nothing about turning them sideways, dropping them, or anything else - you're still stuck with them for the duration of combat, but they're +0 items.

Originally Posted by Thomas

But this does bring up a fair point about an ambiguity that I'd started to wonder about even before reading Kirt's reply. Since there are two reasons for turning a card sideways, not just one, it seems there is no game mechanic for distinguishing between them.

Nope. There's a permanent "I can't use this" condition and a temporary "I could use this a minute ago, and I'll deal with setting it aside once I'm done with this fight" situation. The latter doesn't have lengthy, explicit rules because, well, we figure people can keep tabs on that situation without having to be told exactly how to position their cards to signify it for that short time.

Originally Posted by Thomas

My original question to Erik is essentially unchanged, i.e. do you agree that one can Cheat! an item into usefulness during combat (or were you indicating otherwise)?

You're asking Erik if he agrees with his boss's ruling? Doesn't that seem a bit...backwards?

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by RevBob

On the contrary; that's been very clearly stated in the past. You cannot wield or unwield an item during combat, unless a card specifically says you can. HMOH is one such counter-example.

"On the contrary, ..."? I started my post by explicitly affirming this very point. Why are you writing (in bold plus italics no less) as if it were in question? Did you miss that part?

What is in question is whether the mechanic of turning a card sideways always represents "unwielding" only, or whether it is also done to clearly designate that you no longer get the bonus from an item, i.e. in the words of the rule that mentions this practice...

"You should indicate items that can't help you, or extras not being worn, by turning the card sideways." (p. 5)

Seems pretty clear to me. The phrase "can't help you" means you don't get the bonus. Both reasons are explicitly mentioned and included, not just unwielding.

Originally Posted by RevBob

The FAQ does address this, albeit obliquely, in the question about whether changing your Race or Class during combat changes your bonuses. Specifically, it notes that if you stop being an Elf, you lose the bonus from Elf-only items. Says nothing about turning them sideways, dropping them, or anything else ...

Since the passage you mention doesn't say anything either way in that part of the FAQ, it doesn't change what is said in the rules and elsewhere in the same FAQ.

Q. I'm not a Gadgeteer. What are my limitations on Complex Items?
A. You can carry as many as you can play, but you can only use one at a time. The others should be turned sideways, like any other item that you can't use (for instance, something for a Race other than your current one). This is different from Big items in every other set, where you can only carry one Big item.

There again, just as in the rules, the idea that any "item that you can't use" "should be turned sideways" is explicit.

So, unless there are statements to clearly indicate otherwise, the only official statements that I've seen about the practice indicate that "sideways" includes items "that you can't use", not just unwielded items.

One could also consider this. If "sideways" only meant "unwielded", there would be no requirement to ever turn a weapon you cannot use sideways so long as you do not unwield it. One could perpetually hold it in hand without getting the bonus. In that system, the card should remain straight up, not sideways, since it is (uselessly) still in hand. Yet the rules and the FAQ both clearly expect that all items you cannot use will be sideways. That is another indication that "sideways" does not only mean "unwielded". It also means "can't use".

Originally Posted by RevBob

You're asking Erik if he agrees with his boss's ruling? Doesn't that seem a bit...backwards?

Although I've said I thought Andrew's answer makes sense, I wasn't clear about whether Erik had been expressing a different perspective in other statements he made. I'm asking in order to understand his position. Andrew has been clear that even official rulings could change if there is a good reason for it. There is nothing unreasonable about wanting to understand if Erik was expressing a different perspective. As Andrew himself said, "We have even been known to change our minds when presented with a good argument.", so that could certainly include a good argument from Erik. I believe Andrew respects Erik's perspective and contributions.

[MunchkinMan]

You know, you can't affirm something in one spot, and tear it down in another, without confusing people. So, let me break it down, and then I'm going to close the thread so no one will feel compelled to continue to argue moot points or start approaching things in ways that are starting to venture into Flameland. . .

You can't change the Items you are using during combat. End of story. This means that you don't change your layout during combat. I don't care at this point what the rules say about how to arrange your Items because the rules about changing Items during combat supersede that information.

If you lose/change your Race/Class/Loyalty/Accent/gender while in combat, you can still use something like Cheat! or restore that lost/changed character aspect to use those Items you suddenly lost the bonuses from. What you can't do is turn those Items sideways to indicate you aren't using them anymore. Doing something like that would allow you to play HMOH to take and play a new Item in place of one of the Items you currently put down.

And, yes, Andrew and I are of a like mind on this because this is all actually based on an old ruling of mine.

[Andrew Hackard]

Just so there is no confusion at all: I am 100% in agreement with Erik.