Are quirks officially counted as disadvantages?

[Langy]

Well for one, because it isn't recommended in the book, it's listed as an optional crutch for GMs who have power dynamic issues.

Re-read the 'Disadvantage Limits' section. It very clearly is recommended that you put a disadvantage limit in place no matter if you're a bad GM or not. Disadvantage limits are optional rules in the same way limiting characters to a point total is an optional rule.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

How is telling a player that he has to increase his character's Will from 10 up to 12 and forbid him from playing an average Will 10 character to match his concept because of your need for a disad limit anything else other than a power control issue?

My goodness, I'd never do that. He'd be perfectly free to lower his Will to 10. He just wouldn't get points in excess of the ceiling. If it's really about his character concept, he shouldn't have a problem with that.

Well for one, because it isn't recommended in the book, it's listed as an optional crutch for GMs who have power dynamic issues.

Originally Posted by GURPS Basic

In practice, most GMs will want to set a limit on the disadvantage points a PC may have

That's a recommendation.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by trooper6

ETA: Also note, I'm not saying, "Ze stop talking,"

Labeling Ze's argument as a personal attack, when personal attacks are forbidden as they are on the forums, is constructively telling him to stop talking about it.

[Langy]

Labeling Ze's argument as a personal attack

He isn't labeling Ze's argument as a personal attack, only his method of arguing.

And face it, Ze's method of arguing is a personal attack. He's saying anyone and everyone who ever uses a disadvantage limit, which is just as much a core rule of GURPS as character point totals or starting wealth levels, is a bad GM.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Langy

Re-read the 'Disadvantage Limits' section. It very clearly is recommended that you put a disadvantage limit in place no matter if you're a bad GM or not. Disadvantage limits are optional rules in the same way limiting characters to a point total is an optional rule.

Disad limits are like Starting Points, which can range all over the place.

Having people fixate on a listed suggestion of 50% of Starting Points for a disad limit is equivalent to people fixating on only 100-200 point characters being allowed as RAW, as listed under Starting Points.

[Langy]

Having people fixate on a listed suggestion of 50% of Starting Points for a disad limit is equivalent to people fixating on only 100-200 point characters being allowed as RAW, as listed under Starting Points.

I agree with that, but that isn't what you were saying earlier at all. You were saying having any disadvantage limit means you're a bad GM.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Langy

And face it, Ze's method of arguing is a personal attack. He's saying anyone and everyone who ever uses a disadvantage limit, which is just as much a core rule of GURPS as character point totals or starting wealth levels, is a bad GM.

No, I'm saying that anyone who mindlessly uses the suggestion of a general rule of thumb of 50% as if it's written in stone for a disad limit has power control issues.

[Langy]

No, I'm saying that anyone who mindlessly uses the suggestion of a general rule of thumb of 50% as if it's written in stone for a disad limit has power control issues.

Or maybe they just aren't used to GURPS or have used the 50% rule of thumb before, while they weren't used to GURPS, and found that it was a perfectly acceptable disadvantage limit.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Langy

I agree with that, but that isn't what you were saying earlier at all. You were saying having any disadvantage limit means you're a bad GM.

I said bad dynamic, not bad GM, and if it wasn't clear that I was referring directly to the 50% suggestion being used as a hard rule, then my bad on that since I thought I was sufficiently clear.

My personal preference, which I've never had issues enforcing, is: The only limit on disadvantages is simply to stay reasonable.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Langy

Re-read the 'Disadvantage Limits' section. It very clearly is recommended that you put a disadvantage limit in place no matter if you're a bad GM or not. Disadvantage limits are optional rules in the same way limiting characters to a point total is an optional rule.

I can't agree. The character point total is presented prescriptively: "The GM decides how many character points the player characters (PCs) – the heroes – start with." No ambiguity, the GM picks a number.

The disad limit is presented descriptively, and though there are detailed descriptions, and directly addressed descriptions, there are no detailed and directly addressed descriptions. "In theory, you could...", "In practice most GMs...", and "allows the GM" all are intended (IIRC, this was 7 glorious years ago) to avoid being considered recommendation-strength.