Are quirks officially counted as disadvantages?

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The box on Dungeon Fantasy 15 does seem to contradict with the Basic Set. Perhaps it's errata?

Or perhaps Dungeon Fantasy simply has its own rules regarding disad limits, departing from the suggestions made in the Basic Set, as both GM's and Campaign books are allowed to do. After all, DF characters are limited to -50 points in disads, instead of the -125 points they would be allowed under the suggestions the Basic Set. That the -5 points in quirks are allowed in addition to the -50 points in disads is just another point of departure from the normal suggestions laid out in the Basic Set.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by trooper6

The issue here is mostly that the game the GM is running is ridiculously low point.

No, the real issue is the same that existed in 3e -- some GMs taking a *suggested* disadvantage limit and turning it into a *fixed, absolute* disadvantage limit.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Or perhaps Dungeon Fantasy simply has its own rules regarding disad limits, departing from the suggestions made in the Basic Set, as both GM's and Campaign books are allowed to do. After all, DF characters are limited to -50 points in disads, instead of the -125 points they would be allowed under the rules in the Basic Set suggestions. That the -5 points in quirks are allowed in addition to the -50 points in disads is just another point of departure from the normal suggestions laid out in the Basic Set.

It's unclear to me whether that 50 points is intended to include quirks or not.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It's unclear to me whether that 50 points is intended to include quirks or not.

The way i read it, the limit is 55 point, with 5 points that can only be quirks.

Originally Posted by df1 p15

A suggested limit is
***
50 points of
disadvantages and reduced attributes or secondary
characteristics, regardless of power level,
---
plus
---
5 points in quirks.
***

I doin't know the exact rule of sentence-parsing in english, but it seem to me this mean that the limit is 50+5, with different things allowed for the 50 and the 5.
I don't see why you would read it as limit=50 and +5 outside.

English is not my native language, so i may be wrong, however.

celjabba

[Langy]

English is not my native language, so i may be wrong, however.

No, you're reading it correctly. It's also clear that DF intends you to have 50 points in disads and five in quirks by the way the templates are written - they use up fifty points in disadvantages, but go on to say that you should use points spent on quirks in order to get specific types of gear, for example.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by copeab

No, the real issue is the same that existed in 3e -- some GMs taking a *suggested* disadvantage limit and turning it into a *fixed, absolute* disadvantage limit.

Agreed. The suggestions in the Basic Set are just that, suggestions. Some campaign books or world books may set up alternate rules which differ from the suggestions in the Basic Set, but that in no way changes the suggested disadvantage limits from the Basic Set, or the fact that GMs are free to change the limit to suit themselves anyway.

Originally Posted by Langy

No, you're reading it correctly. It's also clear that DF intends you to have 50 points in disads and five in quirks by the way the templates are written - they use up fifty points in disadvantages, but go on to say that you should use points spent on quirks in order to get specific types of gear, for example.

Exactly. Dungeon Fantasy and Action are intended as over the top campaign books; as such they offer several sets of variant rules within them. Nobody blinks when DF limits what spells a Wizard is allowed to have, lopping off several whole colleges, yet change the rules regarding the disadvantage limit for the campaign and people freak and start wondering if the Basic Set needs errata.

[Langy]

Nobody blinks when DF limits what spells a Wizard is allowed to have, lopping off several whole colleges, yet change the rules regarding the disadvantage limit for the campaign and people freak and start wondering if the Basic Set needs errata.

There's also the fact that every single campaign I've ever seen except one used the 'disadvantage limit + 5 points in quirks' model, and the one that didn't was quickly changed so it did after someone questioned why it wasn't. Presumably, this is either due to people using Action/DF to figure things out or due to being used to a 3rd edition rule, or it just became customary and people forgot why.

Also, DF/Action generally mention when something is different from the Basic Set and the specific exemption of quirks from the general disadvantage limit is something that should have been more clearly different from the general rules/guidelines.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by trooper6

The issue here is mostly that the game the GM is running is ridiculously low point.

Not just the ridiculously low point, but when a GM is imposing Quirks as part of an optional silly disad limit it hints at an antagonistic relationship of GM vs. players.

Quirks are good roleplaying props, when a GM argues against that the GM is arguing against roleplaying.



I won't get into what I think of people playing ridiculously low point games with disad limits, that wouldn't be constructive...
Though I will reference the Ordinary People: Characters [0] to [-50] thread, which shows low point believable characters, without the anti-roleplaying broken disad limit of course.

[zack_black]

Wow ok why is there still an argument about this?

Krohm said "Quirks = Disadvantages and thus count towards your disadvantage total". That, to me, would be an official ruling on the question and thus make it RAW.

Because this is GURPS you, a GM, are free to edit and/or change RAW but essentially the argument has an "official" ruling and thus is now moot.

[Kraydak]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yes. As has been said, the sole test for "Does this count vs. limits on disads?" is "Does it have a negative point cost?" Nothing else matters a whit.

So how much does Race:foo (-20, made up of a -30 and a +10) count towards the disad limit, 20 or 0 (30, I presume, is right out)?