Narrativism in GURPS

[Gizensha]

Originally Posted by moldymaltquaffer

As they see it, narrativist play is simply letting the players power the story largely independent of the GM, and (a bit more specificly) trying to dominate the other players into following *their* storyline.

I don't agree with that.

I used to do IRC freeform quite a bit...

I wouldn't call that 'narrativist'

...Nor would I say anyone actually tried to dominate their storyline over other people... it was just 'bunch of characters interacting with each other, see what happens'

Entertaining, but certainly nothing reminiscent of 'story' emerging from them. Unless somehow they're using the term 'narrativist' to mean 'Bunch of characters interacting at a bus stop where nothing of any significance happens,' but to do that you'd have to use the term 'narrativist' in a way that has nothing at all to do with the term 'narrative.'

Originally Posted by whswhs

You mean like, maybe, the page in GURPS Supers that starts GURPS Powers introduces the concept of a power that is applied by spending character points: Matter formed with the Create ability vanishes in 10 seconds unless the creator spends character points to stabilize it, for example. Other abilities can also benefit from character-point expenditure in a supers campaign. (p. 114)?

Bill Stoddard

The concept does rather make me think of 'Serendipity with the Supers Costs CP concept,' yes.

...I then reread the Influencing Success Rules on B347.

If the goal of the exercise is to create the ability in GURPS for players to spend CP to influence the world outside of their character's abilities, then, uhh... The Player Guidance segment of that box seems to be exactly what's desired...

[nanoboy]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I am not able to talk about narrativism in GURPS, because I have read Forge material on GNS, and I have not been able to get even a general sense of what any of the three key terms means. Gamism doesn't have much to do with my concept of "game," narrativism has almost nothing to do with my understanding of narrative, and simulationism is radically in conflict with my understanding of the proper methods of simulation. So I don't think I can contribute productively to a discussion in those terms.

More concretely, you seem to be asking for a way to get interesting narrative elements to emerge from an rpg by providing game rules that generate such elements. That seems really odd to me. If anything, I would call it a "gamist" attempt to simulate "narrativism" without actually engaging in narration, by coming up with rules that substitute for the narrative art.

What do I mean by the narrative art? Well, take my just ended supers campaign. One of the players created her character with an Enemy of equal but different powers: Nemesis, her character, was a woman who had been granted strength and combat skill by Ares (the gifts of Achilles) and commanded to wage war against a man who was granted intelligence and strategy by Athene (the gifts of Odysseus) until one of them won. Well, I brought him in as a hidden mover of a series of attacks on her superteam—but eventually I had him decide that if the team could defeat high-end supers, they had a shot at defeating gods. So he and the whole team went to Olympus and defeated Ares and Athene in battle. And just as they fell, I had the titan Prometheus come through and call on Zeus to surrender his throne to his successors: Not a new generation of gods, but mortals of godlike power, as Prometheus had long ago prophesied.

Now, the whole storyline emerged from things that were on Nemesis's character sheet. She had bought Aegis as an Enemy; she had bought the gods as a power source; she even had her character under a curse from Aphrodite for her rejection of love. But turning them into a meaningful story meant my taking a theme that the player had given me, and coming up with incidents that suited it . . . and that's what I think of as "narrative." You get it not from rules, but from going away and thinking about the PCs and the game until things pop up from your subconscious.

That's not to say that there aren't useful rules for letting players shape the narrative a bit more. I admire greatly, for example, the use of drama points in Buffy the Vampire Slayer and of FUDGE points in FUDGE. I'm just not sure whether I'd call them narrativist. . . .

Bill Stoddard

I'm sorry. I was using terms from GNS theory without really talking about GNS theory. To be honest, it's not something I much care about. It's kind of old, and a lot of the newer indie games have turned it on its head with mechanics for player narration. What I was talking about was using those sorts of ideas in GURPS. Other posters laid out ideas that I think could work, and I think that I may give them a spin when I get the chance.

[LemmingLord]

GURPS is a great toolkit and could do well to have a GURPS: Narrative book to expand it to include a few more ideas about extending narrative control.

Here's a few options:

Story Based Character Creation By Consensus
The game group comes up with the genre and the premise of the story. Players agree what characters are needed and who will play each character.

Go around the table, each player declares a character element: attribute, advantage, disadvantage or skill they want to add to the character sheet to best emulate the character needed for the story (as already agreed upon by the players). If there is no objection, the character gets the element. If there is an objection, the player addresses it and comes up with something else, or a lower level, until their is consensus.

Story Based Resolution (Consensus Based)
At the beginning of every scene, the gamemaster describes the scene and asks the players where they think it should go. (i.e. let's assume in a Serenity style game, the players agree that the bar scene should end up with them finding a new contact who might have a job for them.)

With a general agreement in mind, the gamemaster goes around the table and asks each player what is most important to her for the story for the scene.

Mr Power Gamer wants his Mercenary/Companion/Assassin character to dominate in the battle and pick up a new gun.

Ms. Buttkicker wants her Pilot/Shaolin Shepherd to enjoy a good old fashioned bar brawl.

Dr. Tactician is playing the greedy captain, but he really only wants to make sure his characters escape before the authorities arrive.

Mrs. Specialist is playing the troubled psychic kid, she wants to steal something exciting or embarassing off someone during the fight.

Mr. Method Actor is playing the alcoholic mechanic, he'd really like to get to interact with the barkeep and then during the fighting, he wants to get his hands on other people's drinks.

Ms. Storyteller is playing the psychic boy's venerable grandfather looking for the psychic kid's dead beat father, she would like to see the psychic boy end up in trouble to add to the pathos that the psychic boy may end up like a lowlife like his father.

Mrs. Casual is playing the street doctor of the group. She's good with what everyone else is described, but suggests that the group not get too beat up.

If there is no objection, each player gets what she wants. The gamemaster's job is to raise an objection if someone wants something out of touch with the established characters, scene or premise. If there is an objection, the player addresses it and comes up with something else, until their is consensus.

Mrs. Specialist objects to Ms. Storyteller wanting her to get in to trouble. She wants her character to get away with things scott free. Ms. Storyteller suggests that if the character is captured by someone with an interesting bauble, that she might find even mroe riches or something even more interesting and tha lair she would need to escape or be rescued from. Mrs. Specialist agrees as long as there is a chance for her to later escape AND that she is not tortured.

The gamemaster objects to Mr. Power Gamer finding a nice new gun.. The bar has great detection grids to prevent anyone coming in with a gun. Mr. Power Gamer suggests that the bartender may have something behind the bar.. The gamemaster counters by saying, if it is a really cool gun its going to be trackable and have safety circuits to prevent others from using it right away and will need to be taken apart to avoid the trouble that might come with it. Mr. Power Gamer agrees.

There are no other objectiions so the gamemaster proceeds.

The gamemaster notes all the story needs, and with the help of the players, ties all the needs described into a cohesive scene narration.

[LemmingLord]

Story Based Resolution (Wager Based)
As above, but each player comes up with two scenerios based on what is most important to the player for the scene and pick something to roll against, usually something they can point to on their character. Consensus deterimnes if the wager makes sense.

Mr Power Gamer wagers against a roll vs his character's perception of 13. If he loses, most of the bar is fighting him and he has to do multiple kung fu leaps to get behind the bar to defend himself and manages to see the gun but not grab it before the scene has ended. If he WINS, there are several fights going on and when someone pulls a knife, the bartender pulls his special gun - but the gun eventually goes flying onto the floor... and the power gamer's character will end up with it later having picked it up when no one was looking.. The GM agrees if it is against his Perception -2 (11).

Ms. Buttkicker wagers against his brawling skill-5 (10). If she LOSES, she eventually has a bottle broken over her head by someone behind the bar but still manages to hold her own until that point; if she WINS, she manages to use pool cues, beer pitchers and bar stools in fights against three different groups of baddies coming out victorious and with admirers in the crowd. No one objects.

Dr. Tactician wagers against his leadership skill at -2 (11). If he LOSES, no one on his team is captured by the authorities BUT someone recognizes the old man (who is wanted by the authorities) which may cause some trouble later on; if he WINS, the team is not captured, no one is recognized, and they help someone escape who is thankful enough to offer money for the crew's smuggling services... No objection.

Mrs. Specialist wagers against her effective telepathy skill (13). If she LOSES the item of interest she steals is just something fun for a kid (a lucky playing deck or a pack of cigerettes); if she WINS the item of interest she steals is a set of alliance ID cards. No objections.

Mr. Method Actor wagers against his CR for his alcholism (11). If he loses, his interactions get him some good information on some local contacts but he gets himself so snookered that he has to be dragged out; if he WINS, his interactin lead him to befriend the right kind of person to give the crew a job AND he is only buzzed from the alcohol AND he makes it out of there with a mug with the tavern name on the side (since his character has the quirk - collects tavern mugs).

Ms. Storyteller wagers against her character's common sense (IQ based so a 12). If he LOSES he let the boy get too close to the worst of the thugs around who for revenge will tranq the kid to do who knows what to him and escape with him during the fighting befoer the crew has any idea what's going on; if he WINS the character was wise enough after the last time the boy got himself lost to install a tracking device in the kid's glasses AND the crew picked up some good information about who these kidnappers are. Mrs. Specialist reminds her that the deal was she would be fully recovered before she was rescued so she can be of some help. There is agreement. No further objections..

Mrs. Casual wagers against her Physician skill (15). If she LOSES, the group will have to stop somewhere nearby to bandage and stop bleeding and check for anything serious (though they will find nothing serious); if she WINS, the group will be busted up and bruised but the doctor will just give them a once over and say "you're fine." No objection

The gamemaster has noted all the wagers and asks everyone to roll.

Mr Power Gamer. Perception-2 11; rolls 6. Means Several fights. Someone pulls a knife. Bartender gun gets knocked away. Later grabbed stealthily by power gamer character.

Ms. Buttkicker. Brawling-5 10. rolls 12. Holds her own until bottle broken over her head.

Dr. Tactician. Leadership-2 11. roll 14. No one captured by authorities. Wanted grandfather character recognized.

Mrs. Specialist. Telepathy 13. rolls 3. Critical success!! She steals a set of alliance ID cards AND something extra for the critical, one of the other characters ended up with them (so they won't be taken away and will give the baddies a reason for keeping her alive to ask where she put them).

Mr. Method Actor. Alcoholism CR 11. rolls 13. He gets some good information on local contacts but his very drunk and will have to be carted out of there.

Ms. Storyteller. Common Sense 12. rolls 8. Boy PC is kidnapped. The PCs know generally who the kidnappers are. The PCs lowjacked the boy so he can be followed.

Mrs. Casual. Physician 15. rolls 9. the group will be busted up and bruised by the end of the fight but the doctor will just give them a once over and say "you're fine."

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

At the beginning of every scene, the gamemaster describes the scene and asks the players where they think it should go. (i.e. let's assume in a Serenity style game, the players agree that the bar scene should end up with them finding a new contact who might have a job for them.)

It's a conceivable method, but I would never run a session that way. Not so much for gamist reasons, though it does seem to completely remove any element of anything like "game" from the activity; but for narrativist reason—by having the players decide what goals the scene is meant to accomplish, it lets them dictate the outcome, and thus removes both the GM's tactical power to surprise them and the GM's strategic power to shape the narrative toward some more distant goal or around some hidden reality. Since those are a big part of the value-added I offer my players, the proposed approach looks to me like a dead loss.

Bill Stoddard

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by whswhs

You mean like, maybe, the page in GURPS Supers that starts GURPS Powers introduces the concept of a power that is applied by spending character points: Matter formed with the Create ability vanishes in 10 seconds unless the creator spends character points to stabilize it, for example. Other abilities can also benefit from character-point expenditure in a supers campaign. (p. 114)?

Bill Stoddard

Yes, but explicitly NOT using CP. Because, as I mentioned, I don't want to provide a resource that can be used for anything BUT narrative control, as this provides an incentive not to exercise narrative control in order to save said resources for other uses.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Yes, but explicitly NOT using CP. Because, as I mentioned, I don't want to provide a resource that can be used for anything BUT narrative control, as this provides an incentive not to exercise narrative control in order to save said resources for other uses.

Well, it's perfectly compatible with GURPS to give players an award that has a CP value, but that takes a specific form and cannot be spent freely on other things.

Bill Stoddard

[LemmingLord]

Story Based Resolution (Wager Based) Concluded
Knowing what MUST be a part of the scene, the gamemaster narrates the scene allowing for the characters to chime in and interact with dialog and bits of pinash.

GM: "Ok, its a large bar with a pool hall and seeminly plenty of poorly lit corners for spaceport hoppers to discuss future plans. The group has split up to different corners, some to ask questions, some just to have a good time.

Mr. Mechanic... Alcoholism. You are on your third expensive drink in ten minutes when the bartender seems to focus lots more attention on you, 'thanks for the tip... what brings you to Bastion? Is there anything you are looking to do while you are in town?'"

Mr. Method Actor: "I....'m just really excited to be here. It is so cold in space so I needed something to flush out those cheeks. You wouldn't happen to have a case or two of something I could grab for my next trip?"

GM "'I know wholesalers who could drop it right to your ship,' the bartender gives you the comm # of a place."

Mr. Method Actor: "After a few more drinks in me I'll start whispering questions, 'actually... I have found a couple ships to carry me.. but to really help them out for my fare I am supposed to find some traders who might want to...say you're pretty.... sorry... I... where was I?"

GM: "'There's actually a fellow over there who just came in off a core world.. said he had some stuff he wanted to unload but can't seem to find the right buyers here.. I think he said his name was Taskin.' He points him out to you. You are well on your way to full bliss by the way."

Method Actor PC: "I will find the captain.... after I head to the bathroom to make more room for expensive wine."

GM: the rest of you have found a few people who want to be passengers without the money, a few fellow ship's crew who are looking to compete in the same market as you... and a gang of leather clad space bikers with illicit cargo sell to the right buyer... but they don't want to pay you to trade it, they want you to buy it directly and sell it yourselves.

The captain is talking to the leader guy of the gang named Jolt theh size of a mountain and talks like gilbert godfried, "SO WHAT. DO YOU SAY?" as she slides a piece of paper your way with huge figure for two crates of STIMS."

The Tactician - "This must be some high quality pharmaceuticals... If the expense if all mine, I'd like to take a look at the product..."

GM: "'RIGHT... OF COURSE.' Jolt slips open his laser-plast treated leather jacket and shows you the glipse of what looks to be a sealed metal case of alliance pharmaceudicals. 'ONLY THE BEST quality...YOU COULD EVER WANT.'"

The Tactician - "Do I have that much money?"

GM: "Nope. You have about 30% of that. Oh - Boy, what are you doing during all of this?"

Mr. Specialist: "I'm reading people's minds wherever I go... hoping to hear something interesting about what they might be carrying."

GM: "OK, many of the people give you very dirty looks as you are clearly getting way too close to them. One of the leather clad men who just came out of the rest room..."

Mr. Method Actor: "I'll bump into him accidentally as I return to my seat to drink."

GM: (Smiling) "Hey, watch it *#&ole!" Boy - he was just thinking how he just bought the coolest thing he has ever bought from the guy in the bathroom...when with a flash his mind twitches onto agrression...its not a very pleasant feeling sensing that. Mechanic... he swings at you."

Power Gamer: "Having been watching the mechanic's back, I'll grab the guys fist, stare at him with the eyes of a killer, and kick hiim in the groin."

GM: "Sounds good! About half the people in the bar get up at this point. More than half of them wear the leather jackets... They have the symbol of a poked eye. Everyone has a biker or two around them. Ms. Buttkicker your fight has arrived."

Ms. Buttkicker, "I'll go for agressive people who do NOT look like that have leather jackets on for now.. in case the captain is going to salvage this for some reason."

GM: "Ok, one man takes the opportunity to grab you uncomfortably in your womanly areas."

Ms. Buttkicker, "twist and snap both wrists of that guy, spin kick his buddy next to him."

GM: "Solid. Mr. Tactician?"

Mr. Tactician, "I'll punch Gilbert Godfried in the stomoch and then the face and when I see my colleague going after the non-biker crowd I'll yell, 'I can't afford his stuff anyway!!!"

GM: "Gilbert... I mean Jolt, is mountainous.... a land mass. Your punches barely get his attention, he headbutts the table you were sitting at and then holds each half of the broken table by one leg - swings them at you in a whirling dervish fashion keeping the captain at bay and hitting several bystandards. Power Gamer - you are off in another corner and see your captain in trouble, but are occupied defeating three more somehow, one pulling a knfie!"

Power Gamer: "I'll look at him in a steely fashion, dodging his first few swipes, then judo pulling his other arm around to stab his buddy."

GM: "At this point there is a loud KABLAM - some kind of firearm and the mechanic, who is back at the bar, sees the bartender with a BIG damn pistol. There is quiet for a moment, but then the whirling mountain gilbert godfried knocks the bartender down and knocks his gun flying into the crowd with his wielded tavern furniture. Mr. Storyteller... what are you up to?"

Mr. Storyteller: "Back to the wall - moving around, trying to see through the fights to find my grandson..."

GM: "You see him... several men seem to be chasing after him. Mr. Specialist?"

Mr. Specialist: "Do I have the package?"

GM: "Yes."

Mr. Specialist: "I'm zipping around the fights as best I can looking for one of the crew.. "

GM: "Sure... who do you want to find?"

Mr. Specialist: "How about the doctor? I 'shove' him at the men coming after me so it looks like I am just trying to escape, but I will drop the cards into the doctor's back pocket.

GM: "done. Mr. Storyteller, you see some men grab your grandson and pull him outside. You can't seem to get to him through the mass of people. Everyone also hears the sound of sirens in the distance."

Mr. Storyteller, "That's fine... I'll whistle to the captain and nudge my head towards the back door."

GM: "Ms. Buttkicker, you have made your way to the bar where you engage several men on drugs much more powerful than you... They start heading out and away. You turn your attentions on the mechanic who is slumped over... and someone cracks you over the head with a bottle knocking, slumping you over the slumped mechanic... Doctor?"

Casual Gamer: "I'll put my hands up as I head towards my unconcious friends and put one over my back...got to get him out of danger.. Captain??"

GM: "Mr. Tactician?"

Mr. Tactician, "I'll gather my troops and we'll bring the mechcnic with us to all head out the back door."

GM: "and scene?"

Power Gamer: "On the way out the door I'll show the captain my new gun I picked up."

GM: "Oh and the doctor?"

Casual Gamer: "Oh, these two will be ok.. I'll use a handy dandy future tech smelling salt for our beer bottled merc."

GM: "Great... You are mobile enough - at least with two people walking with the drunkard, that you can find a nice alley to rest in. Captain.. you think you are missing the kid."

Mr. Tactician: "Where's the kid???"

Mr. Storyteller: "I'll pull out my tracking sensor trying to see where the grandson is - the STIM gang took him... they are taking him... North by Northwest at high speeds.. to the warehouse district."

GM: "Oh doctor... you find something extra in your pocket."

Casual Gamer: "I don't know whyt hey grabbed him.. but he handed me these before they took him away."

GM: "They are alliance ID cards of some kind... About a dozen of them. And scene."

[LemmingLord]

Originally Posted by whswhs

It's a conceivable method, but I would never run a session that way. Not so much for gamist reasons, though it does seem to completely remove any element of anything like "game" from the activity; but for narrativist reason—by having the players decide what goals the scene is meant to accomplish, it lets them dictate the outcome, and thus removes both the GM's tactical power to surprise them and the GM's strategic power to shape the narrative toward some more distant goal or around some hidden reality. Since those are a big part of the value-added I offer my players, the proposed approach looks to me like a dead loss.

I see your point. On the other hand, consider that if players want to be surprised, they can say "I want to be surprised," or "I want to discover a clue to a great conspiracy."

I do think that one addition I might make is that the gamemaster suggest what she wants to happen as well. "The group will discover a clue to a great conspiracy."

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

I see your point. On the other hand, consider that if players want to be surprised, they can say "I want to be surprised," or "I want to discover a clue to a great conspiracy."

If they only get to be surprised when they've asked to be surprised, I think that might lessen the impact.

Basically, I have no problem with turning over a share of the setting to the players; one of my best campaigns worked like that, with each player creating an entire household of noble aristocratic mages. But I feel that control of sequence, timing, and suspense is my job as GM. And having some control of content, and some power to hide content from the players, is a tool for achieving that control.

Bill Stoddard