Psionic Powers: Brute Force vs Will

[Edges]

So any ideas on how to extend Brute Force Attacks to Will?

That's a good point, Ghostdancer, about the Cosmic Enhancement. There's no reason it can't be a -5 technique for any resistible Psionic ability.

But what if your skill isn't that high in the first place? If the PC has skill 11, I want him to still have a chance with the Will 14 guy but it should cost him. Maybe something like -1 Will per 2FP for one attack only? So let's say the PC knows the target has a high Will because he's failed with him before even though he got a good roll. So he uses 8FP to lower the target's Will by 4. Now it's 11 vs 10. It's not a sure thing, he really only gets one shot (it's not like he has another 8FP lying around), and it's still subject to the drawbacks of Brute Force but it could make the difference. It seems like just the sort of thing that happens in fiction.

I don't know. Am I making sense here?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Edges

So any ideas on how to extend Brute Force Attacks to Will?

That's a good point, Ghostdancer, about the Cosmic Enhancement. There's no reason it can't be a -5 technique for any resistible Psionic ability.

But what if your skill isn't that high in the first place? If the PC has skill 11, I want him to still have a chance with the Will 14 guy but it should cost him. Maybe something like -1 Will per 2FP for one attack only? So let's say the PC knows the target has a high Will because he's failed with him before even though he got a good roll. So he uses 8FP to lower the target's Will by 4. Now it's 11 vs 10. It's not a sure thing, he really only gets one shot (it's not like he has another 8FP lying around), and it's still subject to the drawbacks of Brute Force but it could make the difference. It seems like just the sort of thing that happens in fiction.

I don't know. Am I making sense here?

I get what you're saying but I wouldn't allow that, Reducing a mind shield is one thing, but Will? Uh-uh.

I questioned the rule of 16's use myself but after having a PC group consisting of a 50-pt orphan, a 10,000-pt Goddess, and a 250-pt Sword-master...well I am a believer.

If you want to reduce restrictiveness of the rule of 16, buy the Rule of 17 perk to whatever level you think will make you a happeh campa. If not, buy Cosmic, Ignores rule of 16; remember you could also slap it onto the Power Modifier itself so all of your supernatural abilities ignore the Rule of 16.

If none of these work for you, maybe a Unusual Background specific for a source should do it. Valued at around 50 or more points depending on the setting. So Unusual Background (Ignores the Rule of 16 for Psi powers) [50] could get what your looking for.

I rather like that too, so for 2 FP and -5 to skill ignore the rule of 16 for that one attack. But it might get overpowering if you also aren't using Uber Techniques (which I am fond of).

Ghostdancer

[Christopher R. Rice]

I also wanted to comment on Kromm's post, 'specially on the lower part he has a real point here:

To get a attack based on the lower of the Targets ST, DX, IQ, HT, Will, or Per is only +120%. That is *insanely* useful, from the hulking ST low Will warrior to the feeble bodied high IQ wizard.

Just sayin'

Ghostdancer

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

When the PCs have that kind of power, not giving it to their opponents on occasion is not an option.

True. But that has absolutely nothing to do with capping nifty powers v. those with less nifty defenses. I mean, say you're in a supers game. One of the key things Supers advises you to do is tell your players "design your PCs so that they can at least survive combat against someone armed with a gun." So, you have secret option number a, where you tell your players to have defenses v. certain threats they're likely to face. On the other hand, say you're in a gritty WWII game. Usually, your PCs should merely avoid charging machine gun nests, because they KNOW they will almost certainly die.

So in games where the potential for instant hamburger exists, in both cases the important part is to make clear what precisely can lead to instant hamburger, and what defenses they should be able to muster against such situations, be that avoidance, stealth, direct confrontation, negation, whatever. It doesn't mean that the status quo should be that one particular type of attack is incapable of leading to instant hamburger, at least in my opinion. I'd rather have it as a campaign toggle, an optional rule.

I mean, if someone, NPC or PC, has Terror-30, they should be able to scare the bezesus out of ordinary mortals, IMO. The defense against that should not be a Navy SEAL level Will score. The defense against that is to not get in range, or be a superhuman. And if you think that anyone has a small chance of shrugging of supernatural effects if they get lucky, just cap supernatural abilities to like 20 or so. We do that for all kinds of genres and abilities already.

[Edges]

Crakkerjakk, you're starting to sell me on the idea. But doesn't the existence of Cosmic, Ignores Rule of 16 +50% solve the issue? This way someone can have the unstoppable Terror-30. It's just a bit more expensive.

But really, this talk about the Rule of 16 is just a tangent. I'm looking for a technique to psionically blast through natural mental defenses that can be attempted at any level. The Rule of 16 only came up because David Johnston2 suggested trading fatigue for skill (for which there isn't a rule anyway).

I see what you're saying Ghostdancer. You've had some experiences that call for Will being sacred. Why do you see such a big difference between Mind Shield and Will? They are only off in cost by one point per level. One applies to a few skills and can be rolled on for extra effort and the other often has a power modifier associated with it and can alert you of mental attack. But they're really quite similar. What is the justification of making one invincible to Brute Force and the other not?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I mean, if someone, NPC or PC, has Terror-30, they should be able to scare the bezesus out of ordinary mortals, IMO.

They can. Terror isn't a contest so the rule of 16 doesn't apply to it.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Edges

But really, this talk about the Rule of 16 is just a tangent. I'm looking for a technique to psionically blast through natural mental defenses that can be attempted at any level. The Rule of 16 only came up because David Johnston2 suggested trading fatigue for skill (for which there isn't a rule anyway).

Sure there is, it's in Powers, p. 161. I would say what you are describing is just high skill vs. will with maybe Rule of 17.

Originally Posted by Edges

I see what you're saying Ghostdancer. You've had some experiences that call for Will being sacred. Why do you see such a big difference between Mind Shield and Will? They are only off in cost by one point per level. One applies to a few skills and can be rolled on for extra effort and the other often has a power modifier associated with it and can alert you of mental attack. But they're really quite similar. What is the justification of making one invincible to Brute Force and the other not?

I don't hold it sacred so much as Brute Force attacks are basically Armor Divisor on your attack with Cost Fatigue slapped on. Thats pretty much it I think...

Ghostdancer

[Edges]

Great.

Thanks.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Edges

But doesn't the existence of Cosmic, Ignores Rule of 16 +50% solve the issue? This way someone can have the unstoppable Terror-30. It's just a bit more expensive.

Yeah, I just think the baseline should be streamlined rules, not exceptions to the rules.

Originally Posted by Edges

But really, this talk about the Rule of 16 is just a tangent.

Yeah, sorry about that. Kind of hijacked your thread a bit.

Originally Posted by Edges

I'm looking for a technique to psionically blast through natural mental defenses that can be attempted at any level. The Rule of 16 only came up because David Johnston2 suggested trading fatigue for skill (for which there isn't a rule anyway).

I'd do the same as David Johnston2 suggests, using the rules from Thuamatology (THM39) for trading energy for speed and skill.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

They can. Terror isn't a contest so the rule of 16 doesn't apply to it.

You know, Terror is also a Mind Control area spell resisted by Will. M134. Regardless of which Terror I was talking about, it doesn't obviate my point. Unified mechanics should be default unless there's a clear and pressing need for it to be otherwise. I don't think that's the case with the rule of 16.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Yeah, I just think the baseline should be streamlined rules, not exceptions to the rules.

That's cool.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Yeah, sorry about that. Kind of hijacked your thread a bit.

No worries.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I'd do the same as David Johnston2 suggests, using the rules from Thuamatology (THM39) for trading energy for speed and skill.

I considered that. But since Psionic Powers don't have a base FP cost, adding x% as suggested in THM doesn't work. I'll go with P161 instead. The Psionic Powers are advantages not spells after all.

Now I wonder why the Rev didn't include the P161 option in Psionic Powers to begin with...