Area Effect and Wall height

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Prof. Á.

Hello everyone!

I would like to ask a few question: What is the height of an Area Of Effect attack? Is it semi-circle, with the height in the center equal to the radius, becoming smaller and smaller? Or is it 2 yards everywhere?

As per the basic set page 101 : "12’ high, should volume matter". 12' everywhere (which is 4 yards, not two).

Originally Posted by Prof. Á.

Also, how tall is the Wall the wall enhancement gives? And can you put the 3x1 wall block in any shape you want? Also, the wall parts are given per level of AreaOfEffect, or by the Radius it would give?

Most of these are answered in the description of the Wall Enhancement, page 109. The height is as per page 101 (12' tall). To put it in any shape you want, you need to take the second level of wall, who's ONLY point is to let you put it in any shape you want.

"You get a three-yard-long by one-yard-wide wall per yard of radius in your area." (emphasis mine) - so for an attack that normally doesn't have an Area (all of them, I think), one level of Area of Effect gives you 2 yards of radius, so 6x1 of wall. Two levels of AOE gives you 4yards, so 12x1. Three levels of AOE gives you 8 yards, so 24x1.

Originally Posted by Prof. Á.

I have searched everywhere, and couldn't find answers. Thank you in advance. :)

Search in the Basic Set ;) The PDF version is really handy, and you can get it from e23.

[Prof. Á.]

Thank you :)

It looks like I was looking at the wrong place, I was looking at "Area Of Effect"
description. Strange, I expected it to be there.

And whoops, I should noticed the "/yard of radius" bit. And thanks for clarifying the +60% version. I thought that meant the decorative shape of the wall.

[Bruno]

No problem. I abuse the CTRL-F (find) feature heavily, it really helps find those fiddly little rules.

[Agent]

Originally Posted by Bruno

As per the basic set page 101 : "12’ high, should volume matter". 12' everywhere (which is 4 yards, not two).

So it's 12' high no matter how many levels of Area Effect? Like with hundreds of yards of radius? Seems strange for someone modeling big explosions that the height is purely static. I'm visualizing this going off with its central point high in the air and it seems more like a fire-deep-dish-pizza than a fireball...

[Bruno]

But you don't make explosions with Area Effect, you make them with Explosion (page 104) - so yes, of course AOE is inappropriate.

[Agent]

Unfortunately, the Explosion modifier doesn't seem to indicate a further consideration of height either, nor do the rules on page 414 seem to specifically reference it. It would appear 'explosions' would follow the same default considerations as Area Effect unless I'm missing something therein or in another book.

As to Area Effect being inappropriate for 'explosions' I guess it depends on your definition. I was just using the term generically. As an example, in Powers under Heat/Fire sample abilities (pg 139), you have Fireball that indeed has Explosion, but Inferno several examples later is Area Effect based. And these are designed to be used in multiple levels.

Conceptually, you could say supernatural effects with Area Effect just work that way, but I'm curious if this is intentional and whether larger height is indeed static and might require a further modifier, or is legitimately assumed but not covered specifically.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Agent

Unfortunately, the Explosion modifier doesn't seem to indicate a further consideration of height either, nor do the rules on page 414 seem to specifically reference it. It would appear 'explosions' would follow the same default considerations as Area Effect unless I'm missing something therein or in another book.

I think what you're missing is that it's not an area effect. It's a point effect, and everything refers to distance from the origin point. I'm just not sure how the area description can possibly apply to it, because otherwise it's also 2 yards maximum radius as well, as no hard radius is specified.

Originally Posted by Agent

As to Area Effect being inappropriate for 'explosions' I guess it depends on your definition. I was just using the term generically. As an example, in Powers under Heat/Fire sample abilities (pg 139), you have Fireball that indeed has Explosion, but Inferno several examples later is Area Effect based. And these are designed to be used in multiple levels.

Which suggest to me that the Inferno isn't an explosion. There are many things that aren't explosions, and for them using the Explosion modifier isn't appropriate.

I guess what I'm not really following is what the existance of something using Area Effect has to do with the explsions? There's nothing really "generic" about the term, after all. Outside of excitable advertisers scripts[1], we don't refer to things with a volume as being "explosions". Area Effect makes all kinds of things into volume-filling abilities (often in combination with Affects Others). Explosion makes things that go boom, which is why it's restricted to a limited range of base advantages.

[1] I'm sure I've seen "an explosion of flavor" before somewhere.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Bruno

[1] I'm sure I've seen "an explosion of flavor" before somewhere.

Googling the phrase gets several hundred thousands of hits, if that helps :)

I have mentioned before that I usually assume AE creates domes (on a surface) or spheres (in mid-air). That has not been a balance problem thus far.

[Agent]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I think what you're missing is that it's not an area effect. It's a point effect, and everything refers to distance from the origin point. I'm just not sure how the area description can possibly apply to it, because otherwise it's also 2 yards maximum radius as well, as no hard radius is specified.

Hmm, quite true. Explosion doesn't have a means of increasing its effective area directly (to affect larger areas you have to increase the damage and/or take the multiple levels that divide the damage by less with distance from origin point).

Ultimately I assumed the explosion rules were referring to distance right and left since they don't specifically mention height. The assumption indeed appears erroneous in any case, which I'm glad for as at least this modifier now appeals to me when i visualize it.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Which suggest to me that the Inferno isn't an explosion. There are many things that aren't explosions, and for them using the Explosion modifier isn't appropriate.

I guess what I'm not really following is what the existance of something using Area Effect has to do with the explsions? There's nothing really "generic" about the term, after all. Outside of excitable advertisers scripts[1], we don't refer to things with a volume as being "explosions". Area Effect makes all kinds of things into volume-filling abilities (often in combination with Affects Others). Explosion makes things that go boom, which is why it's restricted to a limited range of base advantages.

[1] I'm sure I've seen "an explosion of flavor" before somewhere.

You deride the term as generic with 'outside of excitable advertisers scripts' and then identify it as 'makes things that go boom'? Area Effect then can't 'go boom', not ever?

Area Effect is desirable for certain effects, in this instance namely Innate Attacks, (supernatural or super-science, probably) if the builder wants the blast to not diminish with range. Obviously, it can also be controlled in a tight area at base.

A builder could decide to describe such an effect as appearing to behave as an explosion (perhaps even beyond my offensive generic use of the term). The effect starts at a center, concusses outwards, causes knockback, and is loud. Does that absolutely have to have the Explosion modifier? Does it have to diminish with distance, no matter the concept? Or it could be say a toxic cloud burst that blasts outward quickly, where the flesh-destroying cloud doesn't diminish with distance. It's all just description - ultimately its an area where things are damaged.

Now, the point with Inferno was intended to illustrate how undesirable a height limit can be for certain concepts. I failed at relating this correctly, for which I apologize. Kind of fumbled there. Indeed, the effect of Inferno is not really an explosion if taken at face value, though I think it could be basically if one tweaked their concept.

If we take the effect and concept of Inferno, and magnify it's area, say to 256 yards in radius, well its a big roaring eruption of flame. With the base height limit, however, the term used of the effect, 'pillar' doesn't seem to hold up. 256 yard radius, 4 yard height. 'Relatively slender in proportion to its height', anyone? Which doesn't hold up even with a few extra levels of Area Effect.

So its not a pillar anymore - that's that. But what if I want a gigantic pillar of flame?

For which we have an answer now, using another modifier similar to Wall's version, according to Kromm. Works for me. Though what if the 'reshaped' effect can't be changed? I imagine that's less than '+60%, shape it however I want case by case'.

In any case, thanks for the trouble everyone.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Agent

If we take the effect and concept of Inferno, and magnify it's area, say to 256 yards in radius, well its a big roaring eruption of flame. With the base height limit, however, the term used of the effect, 'pillar' doesn't seem to hold up. 256 yard radius, 4 yard height. 'Relatively slender in proportion to its height', anyone? Which doesn't hold up even with a few extra levels of Area Effect.

So its not a pillar anymore - that's that. But what if I want a gigantic pillar of flame?

For which we have an answer now, using another modifier similar to Wall's version, according to Kromm. Works for me. Though what if the 'reshaped' effect can't be changed? I imagine that's less than '+60%, shape it however I want case by case'.

If someone wanted different proportions to their AE, to make it narrower but taller... so long as the volume matched what you would get using the standard modifier, I would think it was not worth even an enhancement, but just a feature. Going the other way, increasing the diameter by making the height less, should be a limitation on a larger value for AE.