[DF] Talents for the Standard Templates

[b-dog]

DF seems to be about optimizing points and one thing I think is strange is that the original templates wouldn't have the various Talents suitable for their classes right from the start. Theyy run about 5 points per level and can be bought up to 4 levels so it seems that any class would automatically buy the maximum Talent level possible even before he buys attributes or skills. The Talents are so much cheaper than learning individual skills or increasing attributes. So for this reason I think it would be interesting to see what the Standard Templates would be if the Talents were included to optimize the points.

[zoncxs]

chi talent is 15/lvl. which would cost the player 60pts!

sure that is cheaper than spending 112+pts in the seven skills the template ask for you to choose, but I would rather spend 40 of those points in DX.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

chi talent is 15/lvl. which would cost the player 60pts!

sure that is cheaper than spending 112+pts in the seven skills the template ask for you to choose, but I would rather spend 40 of those points in DX.

Yeah the buying of attributes is the cheapest way to go but it sort of goes against the whole niche protection thing. I mean DX increase helps you with everything not just skills for martial artists but also thief skills, knight skills and just about any physical skill.

[PK]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

chi talent is 15/lvl. which would cost the player 60pts!

sure that is cheaper than spending 112+pts in the seven skills the template ask for you to choose, but I would rather spend 40 of those points in DX.

Why DX? The martial artist already has great DX -- it's his other scores that need the help. The whole idea behind Chi Talent is that you can buy Chi Talent 4 [60] instead of having to buy IQ +4 [80] and HT +4 [40] for twice the cost, and then it also boosts the DX-based chi skills and the chi powers as well.

It's actually the best deal in DF as far as Talents, IMO.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by PK

Why DX? The martial artist already has great DX -- it's his other scores that need the help. The whole idea behind Chi Talent is that you can buy Chi Talent 4 [60] instead of having to buy IQ +4 [80] and HT +4 [40] for twice the cost, and then it also boosts the DX-based chi skills and the chi powers as well.

It's actually the best deal in DF as far as Talents, IMO.

At least in the case of the Barbarian, the Outdoorsman Talent is there specifically so that he can "get by" with an average'ish IQ, since (IIRC) many of the skills covered by Outdoorsman are IQ-based.

So in that case, the cheap Talent is there to make a character concept feasible, that of "not bright at all, but savvy in the outdoors, albeit primarily a strong warrior".

The Thief's (pseudo-)Talent, High Manual Dexterity, instead covers the template's main schtick, (many) thiefly non-combat skills, but note that it's not one of the cheap 5 CP Talents. It's also one of the Talents in GURPS that makes the most sense, in terms of something a person can actually be born with, as in genetic aptitude.

[Carlos]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

chi talent is 15/lvl. which would cost the player 60pts!

sure that is cheaper than spending 112+pts in the seven skills the template ask for you to choose, but I would rather spend 40 of those points in DX.

Things are not that simple. As PK said, Chi Talent is the best deal in DF and is worthy of each CP. Is it costly? Costly as hell. But to me, the whole point of playing a Martial Artist is to make extensive use of all Chi Skills, and they are DX, IQ, HT, Will and Per-based. There's not a single non-usefull chi-skill.

Yet, anyone can have Chi Talent 4, as long as they have the Martial Artist lenses. But only Martial Artists can reach Chi Talent 6. Ok, that's 90 points, but that means +6 on all Chi Skills and Chi imbuements, since they're also Martial Artist power-ups.

And Chi Talent also works for Chi powered advantages... But honestly I don't know which chi-power advantage receive your Chi Talent bonus.

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

So the Ranger gets his bonuses to Tracking, Stealth, Survival, Bow, and Camouflage while a Sharpshooter talent gives bonuses to Stealth, Bow, Fast-Draw, and Armoury (Bows). Just for example.

Would that stack with racial talent, Forest Guard? That would make Ranger elves uber-archers.

EDIT: By the way, I've said in this forum that Martial Artists really should have an official Talent in their new Power-ups (in DF 11) that includes Karate, Judo, Acrobatics and other two skills (maybe Jumping and another skill). And Kromm agreed.

[b-dog]

I feel that with each class having its own talent list the game becomes truer to the original concept of D&D. The class becomes more important and this allows the attributes to be able to be reduced. This way a Knight can have high skill in weapon and other combat skills but otherwise does not have exceptionally high DX. Thus the Knight would not be very good at other DX skills outside of his class but would be very good at his class skills. Sometimes from a point maximization standpoint it is better jusr to put a buncho of points in an attributetattribute than to put into individual skills. Talents seem to compensate for this to some degree.

[ErhnamDJ]

Regarding the Martial Artist's Chi Talent, I don't think it's as good a deal as it's being put forward here.

First off, it doesn't do very much as their power talent. It adds to Danger Sense, if you take that, but that's not worth very much. Other than that, it doesn't do very much at all in that regard.


Second, its bonus to skills. For one thing, the starting Martial Artist only gets seven chi skills to start with, and each one only has two points spent on it. You could put two more points into each of those and get the same thing for about the same cost (fourteen versus fifteen points).

Also, the skills themselves aren't each equally useful. Look at these two sample selections:


Selection #1
Autohypnosis
Esoteric Medicine
Blind Fighting
Mind Block
Pressure Points
Immovable Stance
Push

Selection #2
Throwing Art
Mental Strength
Light Walk
Power Blow
Flying Leap
Kiai
Breath Control


The usefulness of those two selections is not the same. If you want to focus on the skills in Selection #1, then you should probably pay a different amount for skill increases than if you want to focus on the skills from Selection #2.


It's also the case that the chi skills are of varying usefulness at different skill levels. Mind Block at 13 isn't very useful. Mind Block itself isn't very useful when compared to Mental Strength or Will.

Each level of a skill isn't worth the same amount. You need to have Power Blow at a high level if you want to use it. Body Control wants a higher level than your HT score. The ones that are more useful---Throwing Art and Light Walk--are both DX-based, which the Martial Artist already has at a high level, and are both useful from the start. You can get one of the best ranged weapon skills in the game.

And you can add other skills after character creation, to purchase all of them, but the person making a Martial Artist will take the seven skills they find most useful to start, and so each additional skill is worth less to them.

I'm just not sure how Chi Talent is supposed to be worth more than a level of Will + a level of HT, which covers most of those skills that aren't already at high levels from the Martial Artist's DX. Or you could do a level of Per + a level of Will + a 5-point Talent (which could include those other skills).

This is the same problem the Barbarian faces. If Outdoorsman didn't have Fishing, it would be a 5-point/level Talent. And you could use those other five points to raise Per, which... raises Fishing. You're paying five extra points a level to raise Fishing. If it wasn't even in the Talent, it would only cost 4/level to raise.


There are seventeen skills in Chi Talent. You're paying five more points for the five worst skills on the list, whichever you consider those to be.

I don't see any reason not to allow them to have a 10/level Talent where they pick twelve that they want, with the option of upgrading to the full 15/level version.

Or even a six skill version for 5/level. They only start with seven chi skills! Right off the bat, they're paying a ton of points for increases in skills that they don't even have. They're paying a ton of points for potential increases later on to skills that, in character creation, they thought were worse than their top seven!

If I make a Martial Artist, how many more of those Chi skills am I actually going to want? If I don't take Autohypnosis and Esoteric Medicine and I don't want to sink points into Power Blow, then that's three skills right there that I might never take, yet that I'm still paying points for as part of Chi Talent. Add a few more in there that I never want, and we're already down to a 10/level Talent. Parry Missile Weapons is way overpriced, my concept doesn't call for Kiai, I didn't take Power Blow so I can't get Flying Leap, and now I'm only using eleven of the potential seventeen Chi skills.


So, while it is significantly less costly to purchase Chi Mastery than to get an equivalent increase in skill levels to those skills from some other means, it's not as effective as it could be if you only want six or fewer or twelve or fewer of those skills. Compare it to Ninja Talent, or the Strong Chi talent from Power-Ups 3. The Martial Artist doesn't have an option for raising a small number of skills like that. It's all or nothing, but I don't think anyone values all seventeen of those Chi skills equally.

[PK]

(Quote trimmed heavily.)

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Regarding the Martial Artist's Chi Talent, I don't think it's as good a deal as it's being put forward here.

For one thing, the starting Martial Artist only gets seven chi skills to start with, and each one only has two points spent on it. You could put two more points into each of those and get the same thing for about the same cost (fourteen versus fifteen points).

Also, the skills themselves aren't each equally useful.

So, while it is significantly less costly to purchase Chi Mastery than to get an equivalent increase in skill levels to those skills from some other means, it's not as effective as it could be if you only want six or fewer or twelve or fewer of those skills. Compare it to Ninja Talent, or the Strong Chi talent from Power-Ups 3. The Martial Artist doesn't have an option for raising a small number of skills like that. It's all or nothing, but I don't think anyone values all seventeen of those Chi skills equally.

I have to admit, you make a good point. When I was doing my Deadlands-to-GURPS/4e conversion, I original stole Chi Mastery wholesale as the Talent for cinematic martial artists. But I admit I didn't really enjoy how they were coming together. So I stole a little inspiration* from Bill Stoddard's upcoming GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers and came up with five cheap Talents instead of one expensive one -- and I must admit, it's been a big improvement.

So, that lesson learned, here's how I'd suggest doing the same for Dungeon Fantasy, with a few tweaks for balance:

You have access to the following Talents; each costs 5 points/level. The reaction bonuses (from other martial artists) do not stack; use that of your highest Talent. If you have Chi abilities, you get a bonus equal to (your total levels of Chi Talents)/3, rounded normally, to use them. Skills with a * appear in Martial Arts (pp. 61‑62).

• Chi of Earth: Body Control, Breath Control, Esoteric Medicine, Kiai, Pressure Points, Pressure Secrets.
• Chi of Fire: Autohypnosis, Flying Leap, Jumping, Meditation, Power Blow, Zen Archery.
• Chi of Metal: Breaking Blow, Immovable Stance, Mental Strength, Mind Block, Parry Missile Weapons, Precognitive Parry*.
• Chi of Water: Blind Fighting, Hypnotic Hands*, Hypnotism, Invisibility Art, Push, Sensitivity*.
• Chi of Wood: Acrobatics, Climbing, Light Walk, Lizard Climb*, Stealth, Throwing Art.

* Note I said "inspiration," not "drawn directly from." In fact, Bill's lists are notably different from mine, because I admit I focused more on grouping prerequisites together for convenient character building while he focused on the actual meanings of the elements. That said, I was glad to have his list to use as my jumping-off point!

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by PK

So I . . . came up with five cheap Talents instead of one expensive one -- and I must admit, it's been a big improvement.

Those are very nice. I like how you actually get to differentiate your character. That's something all of the other skill-based characters get to do. Wizards and bards have prerequisites that require them to make tradeoffs on what spells they can get. Clerics and druids have a number of different deities to choose from.

With those talents, there's the possibility to see different martial artists have different skill levels. There are actual tradeoffs to consider. You incidentally get some of those less-than-useful skills at higher levels, which makes them interesting options rather than incredible point sinks.