[DF] Non-Euclidean Architecture in dungeons questions.

[b-dog]

So in my dungeons there are Elder Things that live long with the rest of the dungeon tropes. They use Non-Euclidean architecture to hide their doors and living spaces so that they will not be noticed in the dungeon although areas where they have Non-Euclidean gates are often shunned by other monsters due to some innate danger sense. Deep Ones might have a Non-Euclidean door at the bottom of a pool in a cavern which most other dungeon denizens avoid. Other Elder Things may have Non-Euclidean doors in the walls of dungeons which are unknown to other monsters as they likely can not comprehend them or even if they could be able to navigate through them.

So here is the problem I am having, how to use GURPS skills to detect them and to be able to go through them? Spells like See Secrets might have some chance to detect them as they are designed to be secret doors to 3-space creatures. But on the other hand the Non-Euclidean doors are alien to the 3-space reality of the spell caster and thus it would be not seem right to have the See Secrets spell easily detect them IMO. But there should be a chance to know that something is not right about a certain wall or cavern I would think.

I don't think Detect Gate should work because Non-Euclidean doors are not gateways to other planes of existence like Astral Plane, Hell, Spirit etc. They are instead part of mundane reality albeit extra-dimensional. They also are not magical in any way IMO as they are part of reality that man was not meant to know. I think there should be some spells that can be learned to detect Non-Euclidean doors but these are secret spells that are found in forbidden texts. I am not sure how to make these Non-Euclidean doors be somewhat detectable (maybe just that there is a feeling that something is not right about a certain area) but that they are beyond the knowledge of normal spells like See Secrets. So if anyone has any ideas as to how to help me with this then please post.

There are also Non-Euclidean rooms and hallways that are difficult for 3-space beings to walk through and navigate. What kind of penalties would you assign to 3-space PCs who try to do so? There may be some secret spells that can help PCs to be able to navigate in extra-dimensional areas and PCs might be able to learn to navigate in them by reading texts as well although doing so might make them insane.

So what I would like is to have ideas to help to make my dungeon fair yet keep the Non-Euclidean architecture alien to 3-space delvers. Thanks.

[ULFGARD]

How about having Hidden Lore (Elder Things) work to help notice this? Or give characters with Elder Gift the ability to perceive this (or a bonus to offset the undoubted Per penalty to notice that things just ARE NOT RIGHT).

[sir_pudding]

Figures based on non-euclidean geometry are as easy to perceive as those based in euclidean geometry. A triangle drawn on a sphere is non-euclidean for example. Solving puzzles involving non-euclidean geometry might be tricky. Formally it is TL5 Mathematics, so you could give TL penalties when dealing with systems in without the fifth postulate.

What you actually seem to talking about is higher spatial dimensions, however. Really it ought to be flat out impossible for 3D beings to perceive anything other than the 3D portions of a higher dimensional object (just as it is for the Flatlander to perceive the height of a 3D object intersecting flatland). In DF I'd use Thaumatology or Hidden Lore (Elder Things) for attempts to model or predict the behavior of an n-dimensional object (in another game Mathematics is probably more appropriate).

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Figures based on non-euclidean geometry are as easy to perceive as those based in euclidean geometry. A triangle drawn on a sphere is non-euclidean for example. Solving puzzles involving non-euclidean geometry might be tricky. Formally it is TL5 Mathematics, so you could give TL penalties when dealing with systems in without the fifth postulate.

What you actually seem to talking about is higher spatial dimensions, however. Really it ought to be flat out impossible for 3D beings to perceive anything other than the 3D portions of a higher dimensional object (just as it is for the Flatlander to perceive the height of a 3D object intersecting flatland). In DF I'd use Thaumatology or Hidden Lore (Elder Things) for attempts to model or predict the behavior of an n-dimensional object.

I am the KING of POINT WORLD!!!! Go ME!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist. He was my favorite character.

If it's higher spacial dimensions, there still has to be some intersection. If so, then what it looks like might be perceivable by 3-D beings, though it might not make any sense. If it is completely invisible, though, then it is inherently unfair, as there isn't anything to discover it other than dumb luck. Though if it is an intersection to another slice of 3-space, then it is effectively a gate, and Detect Gate ought to be able to find it. Mathematics might do it. But I'd still think it would be a Hidden Lore skill (in keeping with DF).

[wellspring]

This came up when a friend was writing a text adventure game for an advanced java class in the mid-90's. He made the mistake of asking me to beta test it.

Go north.
Take Sword.
etc.

Knowing early Java, and knowing how people were abusing it at the time, I tried the following command: "Take north".

Of course, to save time, he wrote every object to inherit from one big object called Object. So now the direction "north" was in my bag. As long as it was in there, I couldn't actually go north. Neither could wandering monsters. Rather than insert protection routines or re-architect the program, which was due in a day or two, he re-imagined the whole game as a surrealist exploration.

The infocom games did much the same thing once in a while... illogical things that could be described textually but not actually shown in a graphic game. So I say, if it's That Kind of Game, use synesthesia and paradoxes and logical inconsistencies to your advantage.

I think the way to pull this off is to let the players' imagination run wild; don't limit yourself overmuch with game mechanics. Reward players for wild ideas. If they insist, then give them a Hidden Lore roll once in a while. Double the bonuses and penalties for things like Hidebound and Versatile.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by ULFGARD

If it's higher spacial dimensions, there still has to be some intersection. If so, then what it looks like might be perceivable by 3-D beings, though it might not make any sense.

Sure that's what I was saying. It'll look like something three dimensional and if it moves through any higher dimensions it may appear to change shape. In which case you have a clue to it's actual shape, but can't see or interact directly with the n-dimensional parts. Which can make for a pretty cool puzzle if you, for instance need to predict when it's going to be "open" again.

[b-dog]

Another thing to consider for Non-Euclidean doors is that they may be locked. The silver key may open them but if there is no key would Thieves have any way to pick them? These locks might be too alien for them and only those with Hidden Lore (Elder Things) might be able to open them. Of course a Thief might also have Hidden Lore (Elder Things).

An example of Non-Euclidean architecture in Hall of the Fire Giant King might be the wall of tentacles. This seems to be an ordinary wall until PCs pass by it and then 20 tentacles lash out at them along with two beaked mouths. With Non-Euclidean architecture this "wall" might be constructed with enough extra dimensional geometry to be able to house some sort of tentacled eldritch horror. The fact that the drow who serve the Elder Eye (a D&D version of a Lovecraftian deity) can freely pass through it might indicate that those drow can comprehend the Non-Euclidean geometry of the wall.

An example from a dungeon I am running would be a pit where goblin-kin, trolls and ogres throw sacrificial victims into for good luck is actually a Non-Euclidean door to another dimension built ages past by the Sakyss in order to try to allow an Elder God into 3-space reality so they could destroy it. But the decline of the Sakyss led to this temple being abandoned. The temple was left in ruin until goblin-kin, trolls and ogres thought it would be a good place for a lair. The Elder God was able to emanate psionic telepathic powers that urged the new occupants to be "feed" their god by dropping an occasional sacrifice victim down into a pit inside the temple. The bottom of the pit has as extra-dimensional door that allow the Elder Gods to be able to extrude some tentacles and pull the victim through the door to be devoured. The Elder God spends most of his time sleeping but when certain chants and rituals are performed then he wakes up and waits for his food. In exchange he grants some favors to the goblin-kin, trolls and ogres.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Sure that's what I was saying. It'll look like something three dimensional and if it moves through any higher dimensions it may appear to change shape. In which case you have a clue to it's actual shape, but can't see or interact directly with the n-dimensional parts. Which can make for a pretty cool puzzle if you, for instance need to predict when it's going to be "open" again.

Well, I would think then that in order to be able to know about Non-Euclidean doors you would need a spell cast upon you to be able to perceive extra-dimensional geometry? But still I like the idea of people having a feeling that something is not right. Maybe only those with Danger Sense might know?

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Sure that's what I was saying. It'll look like something three dimensional and if it moves through any higher dimensions it may appear to change shape. In which case you have a clue to it's actual shape, but can't see or interact directly with the n-dimensional parts. Which can make for a pretty cool puzzle if you, for instance need to predict when it's going to be "open" again.

Yeah, that's where the suggestion (yours?) for a Mathematics roll with TL penalty would be useful. Given that it's DF, I'd be more comfortable with skills that exist on the templates of common adventurer archetypes. Hidden Lore (Elder Things) makes sense. And if it is acting this way, it behaves like a gate, so a gate detecting ability might work. Of course, part of this depends upon the cosmology that the GM has in mind for the world -- i.e., is it *really* (3+n)-D? Or is this just a special effect of the Elder Things? The default is probably just not to even think about it and call it a special effect. If so, then "conventional" delving skills (or magics) ought to work.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Sure that's what I was saying. It'll look like something three dimensional and if it moves through any higher dimensions it may appear to change shape. In which case you have a clue to it's actual shape, but can't see or interact directly with the n-dimensional parts. Which can make for a pretty cool puzzle if you, for instance need to predict when it's going to be "open" again.

You'll have to know something about the shape and movement of the higher-dimensional in directions orthogonal to 3-space in order to make any useful prediction.

If you don't have some way to observe the additional dimensions, I don't think the fact that it's higher-dimensional geometry is going to be of any use.

A side effect of not seeing all the dimensions in play is that objects may move, or not move, in seemingly impossible ways. An 'object' with no visible support might be firmly attached to the structure outside of your current cross section.

Also, of course, there's always the fun of colliding with things along an axis you don't really have. Which is sort of problematic, really. I mean, if a hyper-cone hits someone point-first along the fourth dimension you can imagine a sphere appearing and expanding inside them, killing them messily in a manner I imagine the OP would approve of. But what happens if it hits base-first instead?