Discarding Treasures with Lawyers

[Clipper]

Thieves encountering Lawyers may discard two 'Treasures' to draw two new ones. Are Treasure cards in your hand considered to be Treasure for the purposes of this rule or is it like Items and they must be already in play to be discarded? On that point, are Items still Treasure once they are in play?

It also says to draw these Treasures face down. It doesn't say it breaks the unbreakable rule that rewards are only gained at the end of combat, so I assume you have to wait until then to draw this Treasure, but if you win and there is a helper in the combat, how do you draw those Treasures?

The rule that you draw Treasure face-up when you have a helper isn't unbreakable and cards override rules, so those treasures wouldn't be drawn face up like the other spoils of the combat. Are they drawn face-down and distributed with the other face-up cards as per the agreement with only the recipient discovering what they are after he takes them, or do they go to the Thief that actually discarded the Treasures?

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by Clipper

Thieves encountering Lawyers may discard two 'Treasures' to draw two new ones. Are Treasure cards in your hand considered to be Treasure for the purposes of this rule or is it like Items and they must be already in play to be discarded? On that point, are Items still Treasure once they are in play?

I have always ruled that any Treasure card, whether it be an Item the Thief had in play (not including one-shot Items the Thief actually played for the combat; for that circumstance, let's assume that Lawyer was added after the one-shot was played) or a card in the Thief's hand, may be discarded to use this effect.

It also says to draw these Treasures face down. It doesn't say it breaks the unbreakable rule that rewards are only gained at the end of combat, so I assume you have to wait until then to draw this Treasure, but if you win and there is a helper in the combat, how do you draw those Treasures?

This is not a reward, but a Monster effect. The Thief may discard his Treasure cards and draw new ones while in combat.

The rule that you draw Treasure face-up when you have a helper isn't unbreakable and cards override rules, so those treasures wouldn't be drawn face up like the other spoils of the combat. Are they drawn face-down and distributed with the other face-up cards as per the agreement with only the recipient discovering what they are after he takes them, or do they go to the Thief that actually discarded the Treasures?

As I said above, the Thief discards his cards and draws the new cards immediately. Once the Thief has accomplished this, Lawyer is discarded.

[Clipper]

Ah, that solves the problem nicely, thanks.

Am I correct in reasoning that any monster that tells you to 'draw' treasures when automatically defeating it should be treated as an effect rather than a reward and nothing else? From my search, the only such monsters I can find in the Fantasy sets are Lawyers and Pack Rat. The FAQ implies that the treasure the Amazon gives females is a combat reward that the main combatant draws, so I guess that 'give' isn't enough on its own.

Although the Obtuse Angel is a tricky case. It gives you a 'face-up' treasure if you are wearing the Halo. It doesn't use the keyword 'draw' but it does tell you that the treasure it gives is face up. Is this one an effect or reward?

[Coin Flip 42]

From the Contradictions section of the rules: it is a special rule added by a card.

No need to use the terms effect or reward. You follow the special rule if you are subject to it. You are a thief and
you are facing the Lawyers.

[Clipper]

Originally Posted by Coin Flip 42

From the Contradictions section of the rules: it is a special rule added by a card.

No need to use the terms effect or reward. You follow the special rule if you are subject to it. You are a thief and
you are facing the Lawyers.

It is actually quite important to define the difference. The FAQ also has this question:

Originally Posted by FAQ

Q. What happens when a Wandering Monster comes along that would ignore or befriend one player in a fight, but not the other? For instance, when the Wandering Monster is an Amazon and one player is female?
A. When one player helps another, the monsters do not fight the players separately . . . so if one player is female, the wandering Amazon would donate a Treasure and leave without fighting. Likewise, the Stoned Golem makes a bad Wandering Monster because the victims can just ignore it. (Remember that Treasures always go to the main fighter to distribute according to whatever agreement was reached.)

Given that the Stoned Golem keeps its treasure when you ignore it, the parenthesised statement discussing Treasures going to the main fighter can only be referring to the Amazon. The Amazon gives a female a Treasure in her card text, but we must infer from the FAQ that this card text is not an effect, but a reward that becomes part of the spoils only if the fighter/s win.

The Pack Rat also gives you a Treasure according to its card text, but it goes on to say that you take that treasure by drawing two cards and discarding one. This almost certainly has to be treated like Lawyers and should be immediate too, but it uses the same text of giving as the Amazon. Obtuse Angel is even trickier as he gives you a face up Treasure in his text. Do we treat this one like the Amazon or like Lawyers? I honestly can't decide either way.

I am asking how we determine the difference between cards like Lawyers, Pack Rat, Obtuse Angel and the Amazon to work out whether to take your treasure immediately or wait until you have won the combat.

[snarky]

To me, the difference is simple - the Treasure that the Amazon "gives" you is part and parcel of the combat. You get the treasure, but you don't fight the monster. No cost to you.

For the Lawyer, you're actually paying something - you're trading two known treasures for two unknown treasures. This is much more like a power than it is gathering your usual rewards for combat. Note: It doesn't say "the Lawyer gives you two Treasures in exchange for two Items."