Dodging While Grappling

[jackalope044]

I'm not sure if there are rules for this in the books, but I was curious about some things.

We've had a few situations in my game where a character is holding onto another character, in a non-hostile manner, and somebody else tries to fire at the character being held.

What I presumed is the right thing to do is having the holder do the dodging for them at a malus, and if they fail then I do a coin flip to see who gets hit - The holder or the holdee.

Are there any specific rules for this?

[Ulzgoroth]

Yes, there are rules for this.

I don't know the rules for firing into close combat off the top of my head, but I'm fairly sure you'll find them in the Basic Set if you look. Since I can't resist looking...you'll be wanting some subset of the rules for ranged attacks on 389-390 and the Striking into Close Combat box on 392. The latter might be only meant for melee attacks, I don't know.

As for the effect of being grappled, remember being grappled gives -4 to DX. That implies -1 to dodge, which is also the rule you'd find on MA 121. As well, you're not free to move so you can't Dodge and Drop.

Er. You're not talking about being grappled. So...I'm not actually sure what 'holding onto another character, in a non-hostile manner' means. It's probably not more of an impediment than being grappled would be unless the held character is seriously entangled or in a posture that impedes dodging. EDIT: I admit, the first line may not be entirely true in light of this.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by jackalope044

I'm not sure if there are rules for this in the books, but I was curious about some things.

We've had a few situations in my game where a character is holding onto another character, in a non-hostile manner, and somebody else tries to fire at the character being held.

Holding in a non-hostile manner is a bit vague, but if he's not applying enough GURPSian effort to call the thing a "grapple" (inflict the -4 to DX), then I'd rule that both parties are effectively free to do whatever they want. So either party could dodge, parry, block, or whatever they wanted. If the "held" character wants to take a Move, he could, and just walk away from the other guy.

If the holder is actually grappling the other, say gripping his arm, that's a different story. But as you describe it, it seems that there's no real impact on either one.

What I presumed is the right thing to do is having the holder do the dodging for them at a malus, and if they fail then I do a coin flip to see who gets hit - The holder or the holdee.

Are there any specific rules for this?

I think the second part is covered in Hitting the Wrong Target, pp. B389-390.


I suspect, though, you're going to come back and say that Holder is impairing Target's movement . . . in short, you DO mean that the Grappled toggle in GURPS is on. This imparts -4 to DX, which will impact your Dodge. See Martial Arts, pp. 121-122: Defense While Grappling. You're at -2 to Parry and Block, and -1 to Dodge (the impact of -4 to DX on your Active Defenses).

I don't think that's a high enough penalty to Dodge, but the rules above are canon.

[jackalope044]

Sorry. The characters in question ARE grappling and being grappled, but it's not intended to be hostile. Like the grappling character is friendly towards the grappled character, but circumstances arose where the grappling character needs to grapple the grappled.

Grapple grapple grapple.

[DouglasCole]

If you're throwing your partner out of the path of an attack, I'd first make you win the Quick Contest for Shoving People Around (Martial Arts, p. 118). If you don't, presumably he can't see the incoming attack (which is why you're trying to force him to dodge) and so he doesn't get to dodge at all. If he was the natural victim of the shot, he gets attacked. If the attack misses, YOU get attacked according to Hitting the Wrong Target (if you're grappling, you're in close combat).

If you win? Hrm. You'd have to make something up.

* Margin of Victory or some fraction of it as a penalty to the incoming attack.

* You roll your OWN Dodge for him, at -4 but a bonus of your margin of victory that can cancel the penalty.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I don't think that's a high enough penalty to Dodge, but the rules above are canon.

Well you can't retreat either, so in a way it's a -4.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Well you can't retreat either, so in a way it's a -4.

True enough. Even without that, -1 to Dodge seems like "too easy" given how restricted you are if you've been Grappled in GURPS.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

True enough. Even without that, -1 to Dodge seems like "too easy" given how restricted you are if you've been Grappled in GURPS.

Consider it this way, your Dodge is generally equal to your Move. E.g. your Move stat may be 5, giving you a Dodge of 8; but if you're Encumbered, your current Move may only be 3, and your Dodge only 6.

If you're Grappled, your move is effectively 0. It could be argued your Dodge should be 3.

Of course, being grappled can mean anything from being in a bear-hug to just having your wrist grabbed. In the former case I'd say your Dodge is 3 and in the latter I'd say it's just at a -1.

EDIT: Substitute "Move" with "Speed".

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Consider it this way, your Dodge is generally equal to your Move. E.g. your Move stat may be 5, giving you a Dodge of 8; but if you're Encumbered, your current Move may only be 3, and your Dodge only 6.

If you're Grappled, your move is effectively 0. It could be argued your Dodge should be 3.

Dodge is based on Speed, not Move.