A bunch of Martial Arts questions

[Mailanka]

In my ongoing quest to create a totally awesome chambara mini-campaign, I've come across several things I'm uncertain about, and I wanted to toss them into the churning SJGames forum and see what popped out.

Question, the first: Naginatas, Spears, and the Staff Skill

A quick search of the forum shows that it's "common knowledge" that you can use a spear with the staff skill and thus gain +2 to your parry. The point of the Form Mastery perk is to switch back and forth between these two skills quickly (so you might gain the +2 to parry, and then turn around and stab someone for impaling damage).

However, Form Mastery specifically states that it allows you to shift between two skills when that weapon has a listing in two different skills (in the weapon section of the book). For example, you can find the quarterstaff under both Staff and Two-Handed Sword (though given that using the quarterstaff with Two-Handed Sword is inferior in all ways to using it with Staff, I don't know why you'd want to do this). I see no such listing for any kind of spear under the Staff skill. Thus, you cannot use spears with Staff skill. Am I missing something?

Moreover, Naginatajutsu specifically uses both the Staff and Polearm skill and the Form Mastery perk, presumably to take advantage of the benefits of both approaches, but according to GURPS Low-Tech, the Naginata is listed under the Dueling Polearm entry of the Staff Skill, where it gains no parry benefit, and its impaling/cutting damage is replaced by crushing. The only benefit I can see to using the staff skill is that you could make thrusting attacks at reach 1 and 2, rather than only at reach 2, as per the Polearm version of the naginata, and it looks like you can change reach very rapidly in this stance. This is not unique to Low-Tech: This information can be found in Characters as well, the Low-Tech authors merely expanded this entry to include other polearms.

So, am I correct in assuming that the naginata doesn't gain a parry bonus in "staff form," and can anyone point me to evidence that you actually can use the spear with staff skill (I don't disagree that it seems a reasonable interpretation, but I'm curious if there's actually a RAW entry for this).

Question, the second: Combat Art

Combat Art and Combat Sport are not Combat. If you learn Karate Sport, you suffer penalties if actually striking someone to injure them (and likewise, an actual fighter is likely to make fouls in a tournament). I understand this, and it seems reasonable: A tournament fighter has studied how to win a tournament, not how to break his opponent's bones. Combat skills have a purpose: Injuring an opponent. Combat Sport skills have a purpose: scoring points in a contest. I can actually see why players might study one or the other, depending on the nature of the campaign.

What I don't understand is the point of Combat Art. I understand why it exists: Some schools focus on pretty movements and attractive kata, and if you end every attack with jazz hands, this can hamper your ability to defeat an opponent. But from a player's perspective, is there any reason to take it? Any reason that those jazz hands might benefit you? Do Combat Art skills exist solely to say "This martial art technique isn't really all that effective," or can you use Combat Art skills to gain some kind of reaction bonus from your audience?

In short: Is there ever a reason, any campaign assumptions, any special rules, where a player might prefer to take Combat Art over a Combat skill? Or is it always inferior? I'm looking for mechanical reasons here, not fluffy reasoning (Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that I already know the fluffy reasons a player might prefer Combat Art. I don't know the mechanical reasons he would).

Question, the third: Is Sensitivity worth it?

Purchasing skills and techniques can be tricky. It's easy for a player to get lost in the desire to be good at a particular, interesting skill or technique, without realizing that they're actually hampering themselves. This is true of any system but, fortunately, it's fairly easy to spot in GURPS. For example, I've watched a player dump 6 points into various techniques to get a +1 to each, and I was able to point out that for 4 points, he'd be better off simply buying the skill (and that techniques exist so you can specialize to a high degree in one, two or MAYBE three things, not to "add character" to your skill. That's more the role of perks).

Sensitivity seems to be such a case. A successful Sensitivity roll gives you +1 to attack and defend under very specific circumstances. This seems to be the equivalent of purchasing +1 to a skill (4 points, or +2 if you count the defense bonus for 8), and thus not the sort of skill you should take to very high levels. Am I right? Or does the fact that this +1 applies to multiple skills, in your experience, make a big difference?

Question, the Fourth: Katanas: two-handed?

Martial Arts lists numerous benefits to parrying with a two-handed weapon, but notes that these two-handed weapons should be "at least 2 yards long." Does this refer to reach (in which case, a standard or LEGENDARY! katana certainly qualify) , or to the actual size of the weapon, or is it bupkis (as the previous paragraph notes bastard swords as an example, and I'm pretty sure those aren't 6 feet long (though, on the other hand, Low-Tech cites small nodachi as a bastard sword, which is certainly longer than the katana), and all you need is the two-handed sword skill to qualify?

Question, the Fifth: Grips!

Slightly related to the above: While GURPS Martial Arts added two new grips (in addition to the "standard" grip), it seems like there's actually quite a few grips under the umbra of those two.

First, Defensive Grip. First, it states that any weapon can gain +1 to parry against frontal attacks at the cost of -1 to parry from side attacks. That seems clear enough, but is it an option or is it a fundamental part of the next two paragraphs? Stated differently: If I want my +1 to frontal parries with a one-handed weapon, must I also take a -2 to my attack rolls and a +1 to my damage? And given that a katana could be considered a two-handed weapon, it should use the latter (-2 to swing damage, -1 to odds of breakage), but it doesn't have a ricasso... so what is the samurai gripping? Or are these really three different options: I can steady the weapon before me "defensively," I can grip the ricasso, or I can place my hand by the tip?

Second, Reverse Grip. Grip Mastery doesn't include Reverse Grip in it's list of options, thus, if I'm correct, you need to use the technique to switch rapidly from or two Reverse Grip. Is that right?

The Final Question: The Delicate Grappler

I've been pondering low ST characters in a martial arts game, and I've quickly discovered that ST is very important! I can see some decent ways to get around having low ST when it comes to striking skills and weapons: You target vulnerable locations, such as punching someone in the throat or stabbing them through the vitals. You'll have a hard time getting through armor, but you can always go for the chinks.

Grappling skills are a little tougher. The Judo throw, especially after a parry, seems like a great option even for a low ST character. However, after you've actually grappled a character, your target always has an opportunity to escape. You have a +5 to keep your grip if you made a two-haded grapple, or +4 if you made an arm or finger lock. Sufficiently high Wrestling skill will boost your ST by +1 or +2. Are there any other ways for low ST characters to keep their grip on big brutes? This will be a cinematic game, so feel free to cite any cinematic options or techniques you can think of. Also, any general advice on how to make low ST characters shine, lemme know.

Thanks!

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Question, the first: Naginatas, Spears, and the Staff Skill
So, am I correct in assuming that the naginata doesn't gain a parry bonus in "staff form," and can anyone point me to evidence that you actually can use the spear with staff skill (I don't disagree that it seems a reasonable interpretation, but I'm curious if there's actually a RAW entry for this).

Spear is used as the example for switching skills on p.104 of MA. Yes, that is it. I do agree with you that that they really should have put a note somewhere in the table, if not an actual stat line.

Question, the second: Combat Art
In short: Is there ever a reason, any campaign assumptions, any special rules, where a player might prefer to take Combat Art over a Combat skill? Or is it always inferior? I'm looking for mechanical reasons here, not fluffy reasoning (Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that I already know the fluffy reasons a player might prefer Combat Art. I don't know the mechanical reasons he would).

You should see MA:Gladiators for an example. If you want to look impressive to crowd, then it's for you.

Question, the third: Is Sensitivity worth it?

Purchasing skills and techniques can be tricky. It's easy for a player to get lost in the desire to be good at a particular, interesting skill or technique, without realizing that they're actually hampering themselves. This is true of any system but, fortunately, it's fairly easy to spot in GURPS. For example, I've watched a player dump 6 points into various techniques to get a +1 to each, and I was able to point out that for 4 points, he'd be better off simply buying the skill (and that techniques exist so you can specialize to a high degree in one, two or MAYBE three things, not to "add character" to your skill. That's more the role of perks).

Sensitivity seems to be such a case. A successful Sensitivity roll gives you +1 to attack and defend under very specific circumstances. This seems to be the equivalent of purchasing +1 to a skill (4 points, or +2 if you count the defense bonus for 8), and thus not the sort of skill you should take to very high levels. Am I right? Or does the fact that this +1 applies to multiple skills, in your experience, make a big difference?

Once you can routinely succeed by 3+ in order to get the +2 bonus you probably don't need to raise it further. The fact it boosts defenses directly is key, and it may even be more cost effective than a Talent. Note that sufficient bonuses from other sources means you may not even need to put [4] into it, just the [1] to buy it.

Question, the Fourth: Katanas: two-handed?

Martial Arts lists numerous benefits to parrying with a two-handed weapon, but notes that these two-handed weapons should be "at least 2 yards long." Does this refer to reach (in which case, a standard or LEGENDARY! katana certainly qualify) , or to the actual size of the weapon, or is it bupkis (as the previous paragraph notes bastard swords as an example, and I'm pretty sure those aren't 6 feet long (though, on the other hand, Low-Tech cites small nodachi as a bastard sword, which is certainly longer than the katana), and all you need is the two-handed sword skill to qualify?

I would say Reach, since GURPS doesn't give weapon lengths.

Question, the Fifth: Grips!
First, Defensive Grip. First, it states that any weapon can gain +1 to parry against frontal attacks at the cost of -1 to parry from side attacks. That seems clear enough, but is it an option or is it a fundamental part of the next two paragraphs?

The use of any should make it clear that that applies to any weapon. You then have three paragraphs for the additional rules covering specific cases; one handed weapons, two handed weapons, and swords.

Stated differently: If I want my +1 to frontal parries with a one-handed weapon, must I also take a -2 to my attack rolls and a +1 to my damage? And given that a katana could be considered a two-handed weapon, it should use the latter (-2 to swing damage, -1 to odds of breakage), but it doesn't have a ricasso... so what is the samurai gripping? Or are these really three different options: I can steady the weapon before me "defensively," I can grip the ricasso, or I can place my hand by the tip?

What did Samurai do in real life? Mechanically there are only two choices, the general defensive grip for the maximum number of hands the weapon can be wielded with or the specific one for swords.

Second, Reverse Grip. Grip Mastery doesn't include Reverse Grip in it's list of options, thus, if I'm correct, you need to use the technique to switch rapidly from or two Reverse Grip. Is that right?

Yep

The Final Question: The Delicate Grappler
Grappling skills are a little tougher. The Judo throw, especially after a parry, seems like a great option even for a low ST character. However, after you've actually grappled a character, your target always has an opportunity to escape. You have a +5 to keep your grip if you made a two-haded grapple, or +4 if you made an arm or finger lock. Sufficiently high Wrestling skill will boost your ST by +1 or +2. Are there any other ways for low ST characters to keep their grip on big brutes? This will be a cinematic game, so feel free to cite any cinematic options or techniques you can think of. Also, any general advice on how to make low ST characters shine, lemme know.

The Power Grappling Perk should help.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

The use of any should make it clear that that applies to any weapon. You then have three paragraphs for the additional rules covering specific cases; one handed weapons, two handed weapons, and swords.

I must have asked the question poorly: Can you take on a defensive grip with (say) a katana and gain the +1 frontal parry WITHOUT gripping the ricasso and getting the -2 to swing damage (as in, these are two different versions of the defense grip) or is gripping the ricasso the way one gets the frontal +1 parry, and thus you must take the -2 swing damage to get the +1 frontal parry (assuming you don't do the thing where you put one hand on the back of the tip)

The Power Grappling Perk should help.

Er... power grappler is never useful to a low ST character.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I must have asked the question poorly: Can you take on a defensive grip with (say) a katana and gain the +1 frontal parry WITHOUT gripping the ricasso and getting the -2 to swing damage (as in, these are two different versions of the defense grip) or is gripping the ricasso the way one gets the frontal +1 parry, and thus you must take the -2 swing damage to get the +1 frontal parry (assuming you don't do the thing where you put one hand on the back of the tip)

Defensive Grip is the way you get a +1 parry frontal attacks, period. You also have another affect because you have to put one hand somewhere else in order to get that bonus to parry. There is no choice to avoid one of the other sets of effects. If there was, it would say so.

Er... power grappler is never useful to a low ST character.

Remember, it does two things. Letting you use ST in place of DX is useless for low ST characters. Letting you make ST based skill checks instead of ST is always useful.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

There is no choice to avoid one of the other sets of effects. If there was, it would say so.

If I felt it was that obvious, I wouldn't be asking. Obviously, you do have some options, at least two different defensive grips for a sword. It's not unreasonable to believe there is also a third, especially when it's unclear how one would use the described grip with a particular weapon.

But thank you for your answer.

Remember, it does two things. Letting you use ST in place of DX is useless for low ST characters. Letting you make ST based skill checks instead of ST is always useful.

You're right, I hadn't noticed that.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

What I don't understand is the point of Combat Art. I understand why it exists: Some schools focus on pretty movements and attractive kata, and if you end every attack with jazz hands, this can hamper your ability to defeat an opponent. But from a player's perspective, is there any reason to take it? Any reason that those jazz hands might benefit you? Do Combat Art skills exist solely to say "This martial art technique isn't really all that effective," or can you use Combat Art skills to gain some kind of reaction bonus from your audience?

In short: Is there ever a reason, any campaign assumptions, any special rules, where a player might prefer to take Combat Art over a Combat skill? Or is it always inferior? I'm looking for mechanical reasons here, not fluffy reasoning (Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that I already know the fluffy reasons a player might prefer Combat Art. I don't know the mechanical reasons he would).

Combat Art skills give a bonus to audience reactions in Gladiators. It seems fairly likely that they would also give a bonus in other situations... intimidation rolls in combat seem likely to benefit, especially against unskilled opponents.

Presumably it's also the skill you need to fake combat and make it look sufficiently brutal to fool an audience. I'm sure that there are PCs who are likely to benefit from that.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Presumably it's also the skill you need to fake combat and make it look sufficiently brutal to fool an audience. I'm sure that there are PCs who are likely to benefit from that.

"Faking It!" in Martial Arts says that Stage Combat defaults from both Combat Sport and Combat Art, so Combat Art doesn't really have the advantage here, but it's nice to know that Gladiators has some suggestions regarding Combat Art, and that my assumption that it would be better at impressing people was well founded.

:)

[ismenis]

The house rules I have compiled for my old wuxia setting (if I can find the time to collaborate those into a decent article or even a book I'd try and see if it's good enough to be published as such) include some uses for combat art skills:

For performing tricks not directly related to combat, for example, removing a button from someone's shirt, extinguishing a candle without damaging it, and so on. Basically stuff that you could do with Sword! but excluding stuff that usually require other skills to be performed. (ie no picking the keys off the guard's belt etc)

Specific "acting" done with your weapon. For example, you score a successful hit using your combat skill, which your opponent fails to defend against. However, you intended it to be a warning shot for the opponent which inflicts no damage, but you don't want anyone other than the opponent to know that. Everyone else has to win a quick contest between their PER based hoplology or best weapon skill against your art skill. (this might sound like a very specific case, but in traditional wuxia novels this kind of situation pops up about once every chapter)

Used as an influence skill; usage could vary from impressing laymen to earning recognition from respected masters.

Used as a professional skill for street-side performances.

Still, even with these house rules I'm still in favour of making combat art a technique of the "combat combat" skill.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

What I don't understand is the point of Combat Art. I understand why it exists: Some schools focus on pretty movements and attractive kata, and if you end every attack with jazz hands, this can hamper your ability to defeat an opponent. But from a player's perspective, is there any reason to take it? Any reason that those jazz hands might benefit you? Do Combat Art skills exist solely to say "This martial art technique isn't really all that effective," or can you use Combat Art skills to gain some kind of reaction bonus from your audience?

There aren't really any hard and fast rules about public performance skills in GURPS in general. I suspect Social Engineering may have some. As it is though, Combat Art can probably be used as Job Skill. Under certain circumstances it might give a bonus to Reaction and Influence rolls.

[Lord Carnifex]

That I can find, there are no rules for the use of Combat Art, specifically. However, I would point out that it would be the skill for winning a forms competition in a modern martial arts tournament, or winning crowd appeal in a WWF/WWE type professional wrestling situation.

Arguably, Combat Art is also the skill needed to advance in some schools where demonstrating mastery of kata is a significant testing requirement. I would also argue that, in a strictly realistic game where the Trained By A Master advantage is unavailable, Combat Art is the skill used when demonstrating the breaking of braced, static objects like boards, cinder blocks, and so on.

In a wuxia or other cinematic martial arts game, I might also use a mastery level of Combat Art as a pre-requisite for learning Trained By A Master. I'd use it there as means of demonstrating that the character has learned the philosophical underpinnings and idealized forms of his style, transcending pragmatic combat considerations.