Maximum skill level by TL

[cosmicfish]

I am looking at some character issues related to skill and came across an odd characteristic of technologically based skills - it is possible to have a high skill level in a low-TL skill, effectively meaning that the character is excellent at producing wrong answers!

For example, take Diagnosis/TL - at TL3, the sheer limitations on available knowledge means that even someone with a skill of 25 is going to draw a blank or else grab the leeches and cow dung. Even at TL8 there are significant limits on what we can diagnose, so it seems that there should be a "maximum effective skill level" for many technological skills.

My idea is for an optional rule, wherein each tech level would have a maximum skill level applied to certain skills like Physician, Chemistry, etc. Learning skills up to that level would follow the normal rules, as teachers and/or materials would be available. Learning skills beyond that level requires SOMEONE to innovate - part of the process of driving the skill towards the next TL's maximum skill level. Once someone has done so, they may become a resource for other students to learn from - although they may or may not actually do so.

In the rare instance that a player wanted to be that innovator, they would either need to spend extra time to do so (800 hours per character point?) or else use points from play along with some reasonable resource or source of inspiration - a TL8 Physicist witnessing a UFO may be able to advance their profession based on simple observations. With the GM's approval, the player could start a point over the maximum level provided they had a suitable backstory.

This is my idea, and one I want to implement as a house rule, but I am trying to figure out a reasonable set of skill levels. How does this look?:

TL / Skill
0 / 10
1 / 11
2 / 12
3 / 13
4 / 15
5 / 17
6 / 19
7 / 21
8 / 24
9 / 27
10 / 30
11 / 33
12 / 36

This is only a rough guide that I want to use - not perfect, but I want to create guidelines especially for desirable skills like Physician. I know the top levels are above the normal recommended limits, but a TL12 Physician is going to have a staggering array of knowledge and learning aids available to them.

Please note that this does not apply to ALL technological skills, just those where the skill attempts to answer absolute right/wrong questions. Engineering (Combat)/TL3 25 means that the character can make fantastic castles even though reinforced concrete is beyond them, and Boating (Unpowered)/TL1 21 produces a master of the dugout canoe.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Please note that this does not apply to ALL technological skills, just those where the skill attempts to answer absolute right/wrong questions. Engineering (Combat)/TL3 25 means that the character can make fantastic castles even though reinforced concrete is beyond them, and Boating (Unpowered)/TL1 21 produces a master of the dugout canoe.

While it is true that there are increasingly more conditions for which characters will have no effective remedies as we go down the tech scale, and that there will be more conditions for which dice rolls will be penalized for lack of equipment and familiarity, that doesn't preclude character's ability to recognize that it is looking at a condition for which it can do nothing but use the patient as an experimental subject/source of income.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

While it is true that there are increasingly more conditions for which characters will have no effective remedies as we go down the tech scale, and that there will be more conditions for which dice rolls will be penalized for lack of equipment and familiarity, that doesn't preclude character's ability to recognize that it is looking at a condition for which it can do nothing but use the patient as an experimental subject/source of income.

That may be so, but what is the point of high skill if all it allows you to do is recognize your paradoxic incompetence? And while tools are related to innovation and practice, a TL8 physician out in the wild can do things that a TL3 physician in a full hospital cannot even conceive.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

That may be so, but what is the point of high skill if all it allows you to do is recognize your paradoxic incompetence?

Considerably more point than there is to fortune telling. It tells you when it's just time to break out the analgesic herbs and forget about it.

And while tools are related to innovation and practice, a TL8 physician out in the wild can do things that a TL3 physician in a full hospital cannot even conceive.

Oh really? Like what?

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

a TL8 physician out in the wild can do things that a TL3 physician in a full hospital cannot even conceive.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Oh really? Like what?

Encourage regular bathing?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Encourage regular bathing?

Yes there's nothing healthier than bathing in the cold polluted water of the Seine or the Thames in the middle ages.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Oh really? Like what?

CPR. Correct knowledge of anatomy.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

CPR. Correct knowledge of anatomy.

Dang, you beat me to it. I was also going to mention control of infections and spread of disease, emergency tracheotomy, control arterial bleeding... the list goes on and on. They aren't going to do open heart surgery with a twig and a torch, but at least they know what NEEDS to be done, even if executing it is more difficult.

[Ts_]

I don't see the problem you're trying to fix.

The skills you describe are TL-based knowledge skills or something like that. If someone has high scores in that, so be it. They are masters of their science at the current TL. Even if this is useless or wrong science (like Thaumatology in the real word), that person will be recognized and probably be admired for their skill by certain groups. (This can be statted more effectively, but anyway.)

I'm sure someone can spend enough years studying Diagnosis/TL 3 to justify having it at IQ+10, if the character concept calls for it. So why limit it just because it is useless? (That by itself tends to discourage lots of people from studying it excessively, in-game and out-of-game.)

Also, what about Religious Ritual (Catholicism)? Maybe our knowledge will be obsoloted after the second coming, maybe it's all bogus anyway, but I'm sure certain real people have a lot of points in that.

Regards
Ts

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Ts_

I don't see the problem you're trying to fix.

The skills you describe are TL-based knowledge skills or something like that. If someone has high scores in that, so be it. They are masters of their science at the current TL. Even if this is useless or wrong science (like Thaumatology in the real word), that person will be recognized and probably be admired for their skill by certain groups. (This can be statted more effectively, but anyway.)

What you are describing is Reputation, not competence.

Originally Posted by Ts_

I'm sure someone can spend enough years studying Diagnosis/TL 3 to justify having it at IQ+10, if the character concept calls for it. So why limit it just because it is useless? (That by itself tends to discourage lots of people from studying it excessively, in-game and out-of-game.)

Because I think the limits are not dependent on attributes, and are (at low TL's) pretty low, and because I see no point in letting someone have a skill of 25 if I am only going to treat them as if they had skill 13. Please note that the Basic Rules place (or suggest) limits on skill levels - I just think they should vary by TL.

Originally Posted by Ts_

Also, what about Religious Ritual (Catholicism)? Maybe our knowledge will be obsoloted after the second coming, maybe it's all bogus anyway, but I'm sure certain real people have a lot of points in that.

But that is a skill at identifying and executing the ritual - a success is a success. I am not aware of a skill in GURPS that actually lets you know the true nature of God, only skills that let you know the beliefs and practices.