Dark Fantasy and Magic

[theshadow99]

Ok, I've had an idea spurred from a Russian culture and history class I'm taking... Which is a setting based on folklore and mythology from the Dark Ages.

The biggest problem I'm having with setting up the world it's set in is magic... Ok, magic ability among humans is rare enough it needs unusual background... But how else do I really model a Dark Ages take on magic...?

I'm looking to use the concept templates of dungeon fantasy for most characters which works fine until we hit magic, which in GURPS I just don't have much experience with... I own the books, it's just rare I do a true fantasy game these days...

So, some isues...

Bards: I'd like bards since the tradition fits, but I doubt I want them to use 'magic' per se... Does Bard Song act to much like conventional magic it needs an unusual background to...?

Clerics (ie 'Priests'): Most priests are educated men (and women) of the monotheistic former imperial religion, most aren't magical... Though often they have artistic, medicial, and writing skills most don't. Some however are actually 'mages' and so have powers they attribute to god. Two separate templates? Or one more diverse maybe...? Or possibly Scholar (DF4 pg. 8) Clerics and Mage Clerics built like the main template?

Druid (ie 'Shaman'): A nature oriented Pagan, who either is actually a 'mage' or knows 'secret knowledge' of some sort that people take to be magic... It has the same issue as Clerics... Possibly a sort of 'Artificer (DF4 pg. 5) Shaman and a 'Mage Shaman' built along the main template?

Holy Warriors/Paladins seem fine... unless I've missed something...

Wizards are the big problem though... or maybe not... Is a unusual background enough to make them more 'dark and unusual'? Should I look into creating a Magical Style for them? Or even more then one?

[starslayer]

I think the most obvious answer is:

->pick up thaumtology, use path/book magic, dissalow use of 'adept' advantages.

Magic is a slow, subtle, but powerful art, deeply seated in ritual, sympathy and contagion. (unfortunately this make 'combat casting' essentially out of the question)

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by starslayer

I think the most obvious answer is:

->pick up thaumtology, use path/book magic, dissalow use of 'adept' advantages.

Magic is a slow, subtle, but powerful art, deeply seated in ritual, sympathy and contagion. (unfortunately this make 'combat casting' essentially out of the question)

A solution I've been considering for letting Path/Book magic be of SOME limited use in combat is to let there be rituals for some of the meta-spells in the mainline magic system. So you could 'Hang' a ritual or two, for example.

[Anders]

You do know there's a GURPS: Russia out there somewhere? 3e, but the similarities are larger than the differences.

[theshadow99]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

You do know there's a GURPS: Russia out there somewhere? 3e, but the similarities are larger than the differences.

Indeed... it's 3E and I own it... but this is not purely Russian... Though my initial influence was, due to my Russian class... xD

Btw, any thoughts on how to mod the existing character templates for Druids (to make Assistive Spirit Shaman), Clerics (to make Mage style 'Saints'), Bards (to have enthrallment type abilities without using magic 'spells'), and mages to be path/book ritual magic using types? That's the current thing I'm trying to work on...

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by theshadow99

Ok, I've had an idea spurred from a Russian culture and history class I'm taking... Which is a setting based on folklore and mythology from the Dark Ages.

The biggest problem I'm having with setting up the world it's set in is magic... Ok, magic ability among humans is rare enough it needs unusual background... But how else do I really model a Dark Ages take on magic...?

My first suggestion would be to ditch the normal GURPS Spell-Magic system altogether. It's great for spell-slinging sorcery in the style of D&D or Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but about as "historically authentic" (from the perspective of real-world beliefs about magic) as Star Trek is "scientifically rigorous."

Instead, I'd start with the Path/Book ritual magic system in Thaumatology. Or, if you don't want to have to buy a new book and learn a new system, you might consider requiring all casting to be Ceremonial (but allowing solitary casters to cast ceremonially, instead of requiring a group), and forbid Missile spells (Fireball, etc) and most direct-healing spells (Major/Minor/Great Healing, etc).

Originally Posted by theshadow99

I'm looking to use the concept templates of dungeon fantasy for most characters which works fine until we hit magic, which in GURPS I just don't have much experience with... I own the books, it's just rare I do a true fantasy game these days...

So, some isues...

Bards: I'd like bards since the tradition fits, but I doubt I want them to use 'magic' per se... Does Bard Song act to much like conventional magic it needs an unusual background to...?

I'd get rid of all the powers and magic and make bards a purely social template. You might still use Enthrallment skills, which are cinematic, but not necessarily "magical."

Originally Posted by theshadow99

Clerics (ie 'Priests'): Most priests are educated men (and women) of the monotheistic former imperial religion, most aren't magical... Though often they have artistic, medicial, and writing skills most don't. Some however are actually 'mages' and so have powers they attribute to god. Two separate templates? Or one more diverse maybe...? Or possibly Scholar (DF4 pg. 8) Clerics and Mage Clerics built like the main template?

I like the idea of priests being mostly or entirely social/political characters. In a world with real magic, there might be some "holy sorcerers" (the rare mystic who isn't burned as a heretic), and possibly even practicing wizards among the Inquisition (to help them find and combat evil wizards), but no "clerical magic" as defined by the Power Investiture advantage.

Originally Posted by theshadow99

Druid (ie 'Shaman'): A nature oriented Pagan, who either is actually a 'mage' or knows 'secret knowledge' of some sort that people take to be magic... It has the same issue as Clerics... Possibly a sort of 'Artificer (DF4 pg. 5) Shaman and a 'Mage Shaman' built along the main template?

Perfect candidate for Path magic ... Path of the Elements, Path of Nature, and maybe the Path of Spirit for a more shamanistic feel.

Originally Posted by theshadow99

Holy Warriors/Paladins seem fine... unless I've missed something...

If you're comfortable with holy powers as written, then they should work fine. Otherwise, most "holy warriors" are probably just regular old knights with Church sanction.

Originally Posted by theshadow99

Wizards are the big problem though... or maybe not... Is a unusual background enough to make them more 'dark and unusual'? Should I look into creating a Magical Style for them? Or even more then one?

The "classic" wizard would have skill in Alchemy, Occultism, Ritual Magic, Symbol Drawing, and possibly one or more kinds of Hidden Lore. He's not a fireball-tossing artillery piece, but a crafty planner with a magical laboratory, where he tampers with the forces of the universe.

Multiple templates or "styles" could help distinguish different kinds of wizards ... the classic Hermetic Magus isn't the same as the Diabolist/Demonologist, who's different from the Druid (above), etc.

[theshadow99]

Ok, remember while I own thaumatology, I've never used it... I own all the sub books as well (age of gold, Alchemical Baroque, Magical Styles, Urban Magic). Not a one have I ever had to use... xD

And in folklore some 'sorcerers' do in fact cause instant effects... In the Russian tale of the firebird, Kaschei the Immortal sorcerer changes the beautiful maiden Maryushka into the firebird with the words "Because you are so loath to leave your kindred, a bird you shall be, and no more a maiden fair." That hardly sounds like a ritual magic working to me...

Remember the setting assumes folklore is literally true... and succubi seek to draw forth your life in dreams, 'Faerie Folk' are real (and varied from 'elves' to 'goblins'), as are gremlins and gargoyles. Magic is actually abundant, it's man that is seldom a part of magic.

This is what becomes a problem to represent...

Bards for instance like Taliesin are legendary for feats more than purely mortal... Or the Pied Piper...

I tend to agree that 'artillery mages' are out... Though calling lightning is common enough, though most likely a multiple round effort... Traditional Fantasy is a modern view on folklore era mythology removing the darker foreboding dark ages peoples had and so expressed...

[tg_ambro]

Originally Posted by theshadow99

And in folklore some 'sorcerers' do in fact cause instant effects... In the Russian tale of the firebird, Kaschei the Immortal sorcerer changes the beautiful maiden Maryushka into the firebird with the words "Because you are so loath to leave your kindred, a bird you shall be, and no more a maiden fair." That hardly sounds like a ritual magic working to me...

Actually, that can be done under the Path/Book system. That could have been a suspended Shapechange (or whatever it's called) or he could have some Adept levels that allows him to internalize the ritual and casts it quicker.

On the other hand, that ability could be crafted with Powers as well.

[starslayer]

Immortal sorcerers may:
1- Have access to the ritual adept talent (while PCs would largely not; say a 100 point UB is required).
2- Have the insane level of skill required to ignore the >-30 penalties for casting instantly, in a non-ritual space, with no ritual trappings (likely translating to more then 100 point spent on the rituals making it roughly simmilar to #1 above)
3- Have thought 'I am going to turn someone into a fire-bird today' when they woke up, prepared the ritual in there home sanctified space, endured some penalty for 'no target', perhaps enchanting there pointed gesture, the phrase they would speak to complete the ritual, or a small token, and just had the effect 'hang' until they found someone suitable. (Having thoughts like that may be pretty common if they also routinely use divinations).

Similarly you can allow limited use of 'called lightning' by PC path/book mages by making the ritual for it enchant a token or other item, which can be activated at a later date (Margin of success will determine how long the token remains 'active'; if you don't like the concept of them carrying around a lot of tokens, say that the ritual will only enchant one at a time, or make them dangerous to carry around (will go off against holder if damaged, if stolen will strike holder, etc)).

Finally if SOME effects are more instant then others; you can design the rituals that way; ignoring the regular requirement for those effects only; or allowing a suitable environmental effect to substitute for one of the other ritual trappings (I had a ritual adept in one of my games who was able to substitute 'rage' and 'pain' for two of the ritual components in his damage path; but as a result of which had to be in close combat with a target, and have been damaged by that target to get it to work at all; basically removing his ability to do any 'artilery mage' type work with ritual magic, but still letting him whip out a good decaying strike, lightning bolt or other neat effect in combat without giving him the full versatility of ritual adept 3 on all his magic).

Side note: Since you have but not fully studied thaumatology I will elaborate the path/book system.

1- it's an open ended system, you have a series of path/book skills, a master skill, and a series of techniques which represent individual spells- like alchemy the techniques are unnecessary if you have the path/book master skill, but reduce penalties for more impressive effects.
2- it requires 3 things to work: time, ritual space, and a ritual; Time is long, minutes to hours, ritual space is sanctified space, and a ritual is the words, lessons, and trappings of the art.
3- Unfortunately there is a lot of work to make the actual effects, since the lists provided are sparse; but there is a 'ritual design' sheet in thaumatology, and when I GM I generally let my PCs build there own rituals with nothing more then a casual 'is this abusive' look on my part.
4- It makes for not overly potent, but EXTREMELY versatile wizards; they can do anything, but they may need an inordinate amount of time, sacrifices, and even then be a dangerous skill roll to get it done. There ability to do anything can be limited by making the scope of the paths more limited. (the GM defines the names and scope of the paths)

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by theshadow99

And in folklore some 'sorcerers' do in fact cause instant effects... In the Russian tale of the firebird, Kaschei the Immortal sorcerer changes the beautiful maiden Maryushka into the firebird with the words "Because you are so loath to leave your kindred, a bird you shall be, and no more a maiden fair." That hardly sounds like a ritual magic working to me...

Granted ... but I'd hardly call Koschei an "ordinary" sorcerer -- more like a demon or demigod. Faeries, djinn, and other such supernatural beings were much more apt to create magical effects with the wave of a hand. Mortal magicians had to mix potions, summon/bind/compel spirits, chant the ineffable names of God, etc.

If you were looking for something that looked like that, you could use ritual magic for mortal magicians, and either Powers or standard Spell Magic for supernatural beings.

Originally Posted by theshadow99

Remember the setting assumes folklore is literally true... and succubi seek to draw forth your life in dreams, 'Faerie Folk' are real (and varied from 'elves' to 'goblins'), as are gremlins and gargoyles. Magic is actually abundant, it's man that is seldom a part of magic.

This is what becomes a problem to represent...

Bards for instance like Taliesin are legendary for feats more than purely mortal... Or the Pied Piper...

I'd say that, in the case of a bard, Enthrallment skills could probably cover most of that. For the heroic feats of warriors, various cinematic traits (Weapon Master, Flying Leap, Power Blow, etc) should do the trick. For genuinely holy characters, I'd say that advantages like Blessed, (Faith) Healing, and True Faith are probably more appropriate than spells.

Originally Posted by theshadow99

I tend to agree that 'artillery mages' are out... Though calling lightning is common enough, though most likely a multiple round effort... Traditional Fantasy is a modern view on folklore era mythology removing the darker foreboding dark ages peoples had and so expressed...

The Path of the Elements has something just like that -- call down a lightning bolt with a ritual, rather than shooting it from your hand with a mere word and gesture.

Anyway, YMMV of course. Path/Book magic is the best gaming representation of real-world occult beliefs that I've seen, but it might not be the right fit for what you're looking for. It's how I'd do an "Authentic Folklore is Real" campaign, but it's certainly not the only way.

That's the awesomeness of GURPS! :)