GURPS MA: Leg Grapple technique

[sclose1970]

I've been reading the descriptions of Arm Locks, Leg Grapple, and Leg Lock in GURPS Martial Arts. I am wondering why it is necessary to grapple a leg after a parry, before applying a lock? The Arm Lock technique allows the user to attempt the technique immediately after a successful parry, without needing a separate grapple attack.

[Kromm]

Capturing a leg after a kick is a standard move that doesn't really have an equivalent vs. punches. The leg is a big target that's vulnerable during a high kick. It can be trapped mid-kick in a variety of ways. The nearest equivalent for a punch is Hand Catch, which isn't very realistic.

While Leg Grapple is a common, intuitive defense vs. a high kick, Leg Lock isn't taught by as many styles. This is part of why it's a separate technique. The other reason is the reach of a leg that makes Leg Grapple viable, and the strength of a leg that makes a kick hurt more. Locking up a long, strong limb that's borne groundward with the kicker's entire body weight requires a strong grip on the leg first.

[Barghaest]

I see what you mean... there's an extra step in leading to Leg Lock vs Arm Lock...

Arm Lock can be done on the turn following a parry (or turn following an offensive grapple of the arm)

Whereas Leg Lock can't immediately follow a parry... you have to spend your turn after the parry doing Leg Grapple then the NEXT turn you can Leg Lock. Seems the only difference between doing this following a parried kick vs offensively grappling the leg is the opponent can only Dodge the Leg Grapple technique, saving you from risking him parrying with a weapon (then again if had a weapon why did he bother kicking you to open up the Leg Grapple? Oo)

Well, the Dodge only for Leg Grapple SHOULD be a nice limiter, but in my experience since Dodge is an 'unlimited use' defense by default, most players try to crank up this 'fall back' defense equal to or in excess of their parry (which is why I've started incorporating Limiting Dodges from MA with only Altered Time Rate or otherwise super-reflexed people bypassing the penalties to multiple dodges).

As to why it takes the extra step... probably because it's more natural to go into an arm lock following parrying a punch while it does take more 'setup' (or committed action) to trap a leg and go into leg lock.

[Kromm]

Even untrained people can apply arm locks without meaning to if they catch an incoming punch. It's almost biomechanically intuitive – for humans, at least. And nearly every grappling style teaches arm locks because they're quick, straightforward, and effective.

By contrast, true leg locks (rather than just grabbing a leg) are tricky. A lot more time and contact is needed to lock up the leg. Most styles don't teach leg locks, and those that do generally teach them as deliberate, offensive strategies (work the guy's leg, eventually get a lock) rather than as defensive responses.

I can think of several styles that transition from stopping a punch to locking up the arm with the aid of the punch's momentum. I can't think of any styles that transition directly from a low block to a full leg lock in one move, though. The intuitive response to stopping a kick is to grab it, not to lock it up; locking it up requires significantly more work than locking up an arm.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Even untrained people can apply arm locks without meaning to if they catch an incoming punch. It's almost biomechanically intuitive – for humans, at least. And nearly every grappling style teaches arm locks because they're quick, straightforward, and effective.

I'm going to amplify a bit, without disagreeing per se, because I do a style where transitioning from "Karate" to "Judo/Wrestling" is sort of our core competency. (that would be Hwa Rang Do; I'm not claiming it's a UNIQUE core compentency, either).

I think the only case where someone 'untrained' will apply an arm lock is likely some sort of standing arm bar or, perhaps even more likely, shoulder lock. IF (and in my experience that's a big if) they can manage to secure an arm or wrist, successfully pulling off an arm or wrist lock is actually pretty darn hard.

Now, if you're dukeing it out with someone and they, say, throw a hook punch, and you step in (or they wrap the hook around you somehow), you can make an outside circle with the side being struck and do a pretty easy shoulder lock, tucking the wrist under the armpit. that's about the only 'natural' lock I can think of that might happen by accident, although edge cases where you extend an arm and work the elbow in some sort of arm bar are conceivable.

By contrast, true leg locks (rather than just grabbing a leg) are tricky. A lot more time and contact is needed to lock up the leg. Most styles don't teach leg locks, and those that do generally teach them as deliberate, offensive strategies (work the guy's leg, eventually get a lock) rather than as defensive responses.

I wanted to object to this, but thinking of my current technique set, which is 35 "Ho Shin Jok Bang A Sul" techniques (defense against kicks), plus the work we do because leg catches and takedowns are big point-scoring moves in our competition sparring, I realized that most of the moves actually result in what GURPS calls sweeps, trips, throws, and takedowns, mostly initiated with a Leg Grapple after parrying a Kick. Even when we DO hit up a lock directly (#2, #11, and #30, I'm looking at you) we use them in two of three cases as initiation moves to drop the attacker to his face, using an ankle lock to roll them over, my weight or a nifty little kicky thing, to drop them on their face, then usually applying what we call a knee compression for a lock.

In most other cases, the Grapple is used to make a lower-body strike easier (charlie horse or groin kick for examples) or to enter in for a leg sweep or throw.

I can think of several styles that transition from stopping a punch to locking up the arm with the aid of the punch's momentum. I can't think of any styles that transition directly from a low block to a full leg lock in one move, though. The intuitive response to stopping a kick is to grab it, not to lock it up; locking it up requires significantly more work than locking up an arm.

I think you'd like our #11 technique; maybe I'll have Alina do it on me and send you a video.

[sclose1970]

I understand that the technique is not intuitive, but isn't that the purpose of training, to make that which is not necessarily intuitive more "natural".

Is it impossible to transition directly from parry to leg lock, or just exceedingly difficult.

If it is possible, though difficult to attempt, a (possibly large) negative modifier to the parry or leg lock attempt would be reasonable. Does a -4 sound about right?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by sclose1970

I understand that the technique is not intuitive, but isn't that the purpose of training, to make that which is not necessarily intuitive more "natural".

Is it impossible to transition directly from parry to leg lock, or just exceedingly difficult.

If it is possible, though difficult to attempt, a (possibly large) negative modifier to the parry or leg lock attempt would be reasonable. Does a -4 sound about right?

Why not just use special setup for this?

[Barghaest]

Good point. Put the perk: Special Setup (Judo Parry > Leg Lock) in styles you want to have training reflect making the transition more natural.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Why not just use special setup for this?

This is what I would recommend.

—

Remember: Leg Grapple will rarely cost points . . . anybody can try it at DX, and few fighters will bother improving it if they have Judo or Wrestling above DX. So cutting it out doesn't make the trick any "cheaper" to learn, just faster to execute. I would say that 1 point for Special Setup (Parry > Leg Lock) – changing the sequence from Parry > Leg Grapple > Leg Lock – would do the trick. Since adding a setup move is a single special drawback in technique design (Martial Arts, p. 91), the nominal point cost of such a move is 1 point, and a perk should cover it. Do note that it isn't without drawbacks . . . you need two hands free (vs. one for Leg Grapple), and your foe can parry (he can only dodge vs. Leg Grapple). You will often desire to use the usual setup to avoid these problems with you initiate contact. Going right to the lock is a bit of a sacrifice move that involves committing both hands and hoping your target isn't good at Aggressive Parry or something.

[Oggsmash]

Originally Posted by sclose1970

I understand that the technique is not intuitive, but isn't that the purpose of training, to make that which is not necessarily intuitive more "natural".

Is it impossible to transition directly from parry to leg lock, or just exceedingly difficult.

If it is possible, though difficult to attempt, a (possibly large) negative modifier to the parry or leg lock attempt would be reasonable. Does a -4 sound about right?

I have seen one taught years ago.....and I can tell you, its not impossible, but its not something just anyone is going to pull off, and to really pull it off involves excellent timing, and a total commitment to the technique.


This isnt exactly blocking a kick to a leg lock, but it is a pretty good example of the sort of thing you would have to pull off to get it done http://vodpod.com/watch/564518-ander...ssor-heel-hook