How powerful are your DF PC's?

[Maz]

We play are free-form DF game. I say freeform because it's not "true DF" but merely getting a lot of inspiration from it and it's all about hack 'n' slash.

Now I have a slight proble mwith one character. OK his not actually a problem ,and you might argue that the problem is actually me, the GM.

Anyway, the players started out at only 150 pts, and have gotten a lot of CP each session. I try to create pretty challenging encounters (IMO), and I have almost killed several PC's a few times already.

But one character is very powerful compared to the others. He is super DPS and super tank. He has Skill: 24, wpm (shield and axe), a large shield and a magical (AD(2)), dwarven axe.


He does about 2d+9 (2) cut damage with each attack, and can easily make 3 atks with -4 deceptive (14/14/14) each turn without even spending FP.
He only have a move of 3 though.

He has DR:12 over almost all of his body (that's 9+3 natural). He has a parry at 15+3 and a block at 11+3. His dodge is only 7+3 though.
His will is 12, (or 15 with Mental Strength).


He is now at around 260 pts, so he is only 10 pts higher than a normal starting DF delver. Now my question is, is he out-of-proportion-powerful compared to your PC's or is he pretty fitting for a typical Knight.


If this is also the level your PC's are at, what types of monsters do you regularly throw at them?


----

I'm not asking for how to get this character down" because *I could just design some monster that ignored DR and whose attacks could only be dodged. Or something that had malediction attacks and attacked with a skill of 20+.

however I prefer to have normal brute-like creatures in my dungeons. Ogres, orcs ,trolls. And keep special attacks to the unique and rare monsters. I just find that this character is immune to most normal monsters and can kill them before the mage even gets to warm up a fireball. And I wondered if this was also how other people experienced DF melee-specialists (tanks).

I've started to wonder if my common mobs are simply not pwoerful enough, or if I should design the encounters to be specificity tailored to attack his weaknesses. I very much want to avoid the last because I find that too much meta-play'ish.

[mlangsdorf]

He's pretty powerful compared to a standard 250 pt DF knight, but not obscenely so. The powerful armor and the upgraded axe are the big advantages.

Couple of thoughts:
1) Don't let your DF game devolve into pure combat on the PCs' terms. Read the sections on Dungeon Parkour and think about terrain. This guy suffers horribly in mud, and if the ceiling starts to collapse, all that armor becomes a liability. If you give a variety of challenges, people can't overspecialize into super tank, because super tank gets stuck in the mud.

2) Introduce a cheap Enchantment (like $50 cheap) that provides Hardening 2, and let all the PCs get it. Then make sure that all the (mostly) intelligent monsters like orcs and ogres are wearing armor with Deflect +1, Fortify +1, Lighten 25%, and Harden 2, just like the PCs are.

3) You may want to consider adding Fiendish templates to a lot of your monsters. Near the end of my first DF campaign, I had an event that meant that all future foes were going to be demonically enhanced. That let me bump the "average" foes' skils, STs, and DXs up a couple of points so they could at least compete with the insanely skilled delvers.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

2) Introduce a cheap Enchantment (like $50 cheap) that provides Hardening 2, and let all the PCs get it.

Or, even better, nerf the insanely useful, insanely underpriced "Penetrating Weapon" enchantment.

Seriously.

That enchantment should have been made costlier for DF, just like the "Enlarge" spell. Using costs as written, ALL players will buy a Penetrating weapon first, and then start to think about other possible enchantments/magical items.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Maz

But one character is very powerful compared to the others. He is super DPS and super tank. He has Skill: 24, wpm (shield and axe), a large shield and a magical (AD(2)), dwarven axe.


He does about 2d+9 (2) cut damage with each attack, and can easily make 3 atks with -4 deceptive (14/14/14) each turn without even spending FP.
He only have a move of 3 though.

That's got to be off. Making 3 attacks is -12, though Weapon Master drops this to -6. That still puts him at skill 18. A deceptive attack of -4 would drop him to 10 (-8), unless you mean he's dropping -4 to hit his foes with -2.

He has DR:12 over almost all of his body (that's 9+3 natural). He has a parry at 15+3 and a block at 11+3. His dodge is only 7+3 though.
His will is 12, (or 15 with Mental Strength).


He is now at around 260 pts, so he is only 10 pts higher than a normal starting DF delver. Now my question is, is he out-of-proportion-powerful compared to your PC's or is he pretty fitting for a typical Knight.

So, what, Strength 15 [50], Weapon Master (Axe and Shield) [25] (No Combat Reflexes??), a minimum of 56 points in Axe skill (Assuming DX 10 with DX+14 in an Average skill. Higher DX means less spent in the skill, but more spent overall), 48 points in Shield skill, at least 10 points for his Will and 8 points in Mental Strength, and then he has a total DX+HT of 28, so a minimum of 80 points in HT or 160 points in DX, probably some combination of the two. And 15 points for a DR of 3. At a minimum, thus, this character costs 274 with just the things you describe, which is 14 points more than you know about. He likely costs more (I doubt he has an HT of 18 and that these are his only skills). Presumably, there are disadvantages you're not telling us about, but still, you might go over his sheet again. I suspect there are discrepencies and, all told, this character is closer to 300 points than he is to 250.

Furthermore, if his Dodge if 7 (You understand that encumbrance drops dodge too, right?) and his move is 3, then I'm assuming he has an Extra Heavy Encumbrance? You realize that fighting costs 1 point of fatigue, plus your encumbrance rating (4) plus 1 if you're under strenuous conditions (fighting in the heat while wearing lots of heavy, metal armor). That's between 5 to 6 fatigue every fight, which takes close to an hour to recover from. I doubt he has more than three fights in him before he's seriously sucking wind.

Finally, given that you love to throw slow, strong, unskilled opponents at him, he seems pretty ideal for defeating such characters. He seems highly specialized, in any case. Take the axe and the shield away from him, and he's useless. I'm not advocating that you do that, I'm just pointing out that he's a one-trick pony who's been allowed to exploit that trick again and again. For example, put him on a ship that's rocking back and force with a spray of the sea making footing treacherous and he finds himself facing agile, mobile sea-elves who keep throwing lots of darts at him and circling around him, he'll be at a considerable disadvantage (never mind exploiting his actual disadvantages).

[weby]

He seems like a "one trick pony" and will have serious problems if facing many types of creatures.

Any terrain except flat is going to be a problem. (Climb up to the goblin archers on a ledge anyone?)

A proper giant will likely threaten a breakage of even his shield.

Multiple attacks hurt his defences a lot even with weapon master so large groups of relatively powerless creatures that are just good enough to penetrate his armor usually are a problem.

Many types of enemy spells would be quite bad for him.

Few archers with the space to move and enough blodkin point arrows will just pinkushion him slowly at few hits/time..


So if the challenges are allways the same: "Standard orc warriors charging you" he will be very effective, if it is more like a "traditional dungeon crawl" where you have different types of monsters he will at times be very effrective and at other times allmost totally ineffective.

[Mailanka]

You asked for comparable power levels, so I'll show you one of the first Knights I cobbled together:

Grin Battleborn

Cat-folk Knight

ST: 16 Striking 18 (1d+2/3d)
DX: 15 Speed 7
IQ: 10 Perception 11, Will 11
HT: 14

Advantages: 
Combat Reflexes
Born War Leader 2
High Pain Threshold
Cat Fall
Claws (Sharp)
Night Vision
Teeth (Sharp)
Very Fit
Weapon Master (2H Sword)

(if at all possible, Extra Life would be fun.  He IS a cat...)

Disads
Impulsiveness (12)
Laziness (12)
Phobia (Entering Water) (15)
Bad Temper (12)
Bloodlust (12)
Bully (12)
Overconfidence (12)

Feature: Tail

Brawling: 16
Fast Draw (Greatsword) 16
Knife 15
Wrestling 15
Thrown Weapon (Axe Mace) 17
Throwing (16)
Two-Handed Sword 22

Armory (Melee Weapons) 11
Connoisseur (Weapons) 11
Leadership 11
Strategy 11
Tactics 11

Forced Entry 15
Stealth 14
First Aid 10
Streetwise 9
Carousing 14
Hiking 13
Intimidation 10
Observation 10

Equipment: Greatsword (800), leather Armor (DR 2 100) (total encumbrance: 17: No encumbrance)
3d+9 cut, 1,2 
Dodge: 11 Parry 15

I won't pretend he's the coolest thing ever, but note that he, too, has a Parry of 15, a Dodge of 11, no actual encumbrance (I'd probably go back and either give him armor or just go all the way and make him a Swashbuckler, though that greatsword is kinda signature, and a Swashbuckler with a greatsword... might just be crazy enough to work!). Note that he's dealing a whopping 3d+9 cutting damage. It lacks an armor divisor, but only because, at the time, I didn't bother to go shopping around for ideal gear for this character. He "only" has a Two-Handed Sword skill of 22, but his Very Fit and his low encumbrance means that he can wade through a fight using lots of Extra-Effort to carve a swathe through the bad guys and then recover in record time afterwords.

Your character is in the same ballpark as my character. The main differences seem to be his vastly superior gear (likely acquired over time, so not really a "balancing factor" to worry about) and I'm a little sketchy on him having such high skill in two combat skills at "only" 250 points. I suspect he lacks some of my character's versatility (which is saying something, as this character is fairly focused). Even so, you'll note that my character does more absolute damage than your character, and is far more mobile. So, I think the character in your game has some wonkiness going on, but he's clearly not beyond the pale.

[panton41]

I routinely make Wood Elf Scouts in DF than can do 3d (2) imp with Skill 20 beyond like 200 yards. (ST 13, Weapon Master, Strongbow, Heroic Archer, Welsh Longbow*.) Their average base damage is 10-11 and if they were to the OP's tank they could do 8 points of damage on an average shot and a maximum of 24 points.

* GURPS Fantasy Tech 1, p. 11.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Maz

He is now at around 260 pts, so he is only 10 pts higher than a normal starting DF delver. Now my question is, is he out-of-proportion-powerful compared to your PC's or is he pretty fitting for a typical Knight.

Any player who wanted a knight optimized for lots of hand-to-hand damage could build that on about 250 points, yes.

however I prefer to have normal brute-like creatures in my dungeons. Ogres, orcs ,trolls. And keep special attacks to the unique and rare monsters. I just find that this character is immune to most normal monsters and can kill them before the mage even gets to warm up a fireball.

You're stating your own problem, though. You've got a one-trick pony who's insanely optimized against brute-like creatures. And you're filling your dungeon with brute-like creatures. Of course he's going to do great! This is why you need variety in your monsters.

I'm not saying you need a ton of malediction-throwers or ghosts in your dungeons. Far from it. Just mix it up a bit. Examples:

1. Slime gnolls. Modest HP, good Dmg, and Injury Tolerance (Diffuse). 2d+9 damage becomes 2 points of damage. But the wizard with Explosive Fireball is going to knock 'em out of the park.

2. Mobs. So your dude can one-hit kill a Gnoll Champion. Great. What if 30 Gnoll Champions attack? It's not about him anymore. He can kill all he can, but will the rest of the party survive? This puts the spotlight on everyone else -- his first 6-8 kills will be memorable, but then you start taking it for granted and worry about what everyone else is doing.

3. A troll with Reflect Damage armor on. You hit me? No, you hit yourself! This switches the focus to ranged attacks (assuming the armor only bounces melee; a reasonable way to game it) and wrestling, as the knight now has to focus on grappling the troll and getting him out of the armor.

See what I mean? You don't have to pull anything crazy out of your butt or intentionally try to hose him. But you do need variety in your monsters. If every single fight comes down to one-on-[1-3] melee combat, DR, HP, and basic damage, then yeah, of course he's going to cakewalk through it.

[Stripe]

Keep the "kill the melee monster" ideas coming! :)

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Stripe

Keep the "kill the melee monster" ideas coming! :)

Oh, and I have the same "problem", Maz. One character is a TANK. However, that's what he wanted to play and I don't care if he kills 1,000 monsters per session. He's having fun!