[DF] The Road to 250 Points

[Greg 1]

There is an old and hallowed tradition in dungeon fantasy of creating a character at "first level" and letting them hack their way to greatness by collecting xp and loot. How would you handle this in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy?

Are 250 point PCs themselves "first level" characters? If not, how many points should a "first level" character have? Or is the whole idea of "first level" a broken one in a system like GURPS that works on CP?

What should the "first level" version of a template look like compared to the 250 point version?

Keep the Advantages and Skills, but lower the stats?
Cut down CP spending proportionally in all areas?
Strip points from skills in particular?
Strip points from Powers and other supernatural abilities in particular?

What sort of limits would you put on advancement from "first level" to 250 points? Would the PC be required to spend all character points working towards the 250 point template for their class? Could they buy any ability from the 250 point template right from "first level", or would you stratify the template abilities into higher and lower level abilities, with higher level abilities only being appropriate for PCs of a certain point value?

Also, if you took a PC from "first level" to 250 points, about how well supplied with equipment and magic items would you expect them to be by the time they got there? Better than a a starting 250 point character for sure (unless 250 points is first level...)

[Nymdok]

For myself and our group, I let them have 180 and 35 in dissads, and ballparked that out at 5th level.

Those numbers are pretty meaningless however and if I were to advise someone to do it today, id let them build it on whatever.

Looking at game balance the way I look at it now, I realize that the CP are really just for the charachters to differentiate themselves from each other and that once those are set, I can scale the world to suit those numbers.

However, this is not the way most see it and I suppose we could look at the standard benchmarks from the basic set as our guide.

if we look at a First level fighter as someone who has 1 point in a combat skill (9+) then I suppose we could then look at the Knight (Skill 20?) as being an alarming level BA, or somewhere between 10 and 15th level.

Given that these guys are 16+ in most skills you could make an argument for at least 8th level Id think.

Nymdok

[Stone Dog]

There is a very nifty thread with ideas along these lines already.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Stone Dog

There is a very nifty thread with ideas along these lines already.

A great thread, but it only deals with one possible answer to one of my questions.

[Crakkerjakk]

I call 250 pts roughly 5th level, with 150 roughly 3rd. I'd probably eyeball 1st at about 75 pts. To get to 3rd I'd mostly lower attributes, and for first combine lowered attributes with lower points on niche skills/talents and supernatural powers.

Advancement limits I wouldn't make them stick to templates, but I'd enforce the same limits 250 pt characters get in spending improvement points vis a vis attribute, skill, and advantage caps/limitations.

For gear, I'd START 1st level characters with struggling or poor, and call the stock DF template stuff 5th level gear (it only costs $50 for +1 DR, and enchanted weapons are a MUCH bigger deal in GURPS than in D&D).

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

There is an old and hallowed tradition in dungeon fantasy of creating a character at "first level" and letting them hack their way to greatness by collecting xp and loot. How would you handle this in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy?

As with AD&D, you start them off weak and allow them to get better stuff and more abilities as they hack-on

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Or is the whole idea of "first level" a broken one in a system like GURPS that works on CP?

It's not a broken concept, but comparing points to levels is a road to madness. Levels are a very meta-game concept incorporating many abilities and hidden benefits, with sudden upturns in character power when you level up. Points allow for a more gradual increase in abilities.

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Are 250 point PCs themselves "first level" characters? If not, how many points should a "first level" character have?

No, more like 5th to 7th level; if I were going to ballpark it I'd probably place each of the first five levels as 50 points each. Though that's just an eye-ball from someone who barely played D&D. I prefer the more customizable approach of point based systems.

Originally Posted by Greg 1

What should the "first level" version of a template look like compared to the 250 point version?

It should look like a scaled back version of the 250 point template - lower skills and fewer abilities. In the Dungeon Fantasy On The Cheap article I accomplished the first by lowering stats (since stats automatically lower skills) and the second by scaling back advantages a little and also by lowering stats.

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Keep the Advantages and Skills, but lower the stats?
Cut down CP spending proportionally in all areas?

As I explain in the DF On The Cheap article, the DF templates are all extremely attribute heavy, making attributes the obvious place to make some major cuts. Cutting back all areas equally would lead to a lot of oddities - skills, for example, would become extremely thin once you got to lower point levels. If a 250 point template has 50-70 points in skills (about average for the DF templates) that means a 100 point template would have 20-28 points in skills, which would require both very low skills and a pretty pitiful selection of Secondary and Optional skills.

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Strip points from Powers and other supernatural abilities in particular?

Most templates have very few powers and supernatural abilities - less than 30 points. Stripping anything from these tends to leave the template rather bland, which is why I avoided doing it in the DF On The Cheap. I only did it for a couple templates, and then only at the 100 point level.

Originally Posted by Greg 1

What sort of limits would you put on advancement from "first level" to 250 points? Would the PC be required to spend all character points working towards the 250 point template for their class? Could they buy any ability from the 250 point template right from "first level", or would you stratify the template abilities into higher and lower level abilities, with higher level abilities only being appropriate for PCs of a certain point value?

Personally, in the old school tradition, I would only allow advancements available in the next level. To leave a more GURPS fee to the game, I would probably allow "cashing back" points spent to raise sub-attributes and skills to increase the primary attributes.

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Also, if you took a PC from "first level" to 250 points, about how well supplied with equipment and magic items would you expect them to be by the time they got there? Better than a a starting 250 point character for sure (unless 250 points is first level...)

Likely, yes, unless you're being extra generous with equipment for 250 point starting characters. But that's not much different from old school AD&D games, where starting 5th level characters might be given a couple powerful magical items by the GM, but characters that had been played up to 5th level could have considerably more. AD&D, of course, suffered from this even more than point based games because the XP rewards only really matter occasionally, meaning the primary rewards for adventures is loot. In point based games, even a few points can be an intermediary reward - though loot is also good :-)

[Grouchy Chris]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

What sort of limits would you put on advancement from "first level" to 250 points? Would the PC be required to spend all character points working towards the 250 point template for their class? Could they buy any ability from the 250 point template right from "first level", or would you stratify the template abilities into higher and lower level abilities, with higher level abilities only being appropriate for PCs of a certain point value?

I think if you're trying to achieve something reminiscent of old-school gaming, you want to reserve more powerful abilities for later in the character's career. I don't see the point of restricting the character to the 250-point template until they pass 250 points, though. Letting a character ignore some of what's on the 250-point template in favor of other options creates a wider range of possible advancement paths, and flexibility is what GURPS is all about, right?

So, for example, take a Druid starting at 100 points, using Eric B. Smith's template:

Attributes: ST 10 [0]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 12 [40]; HT 11 [10].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-2/1d; BL 20 lbs.; HP 10 [0]; Will 12 [0]; Per 12 [0]; FP 11 [0]; Basic Speed 5.00 [-5]; Basic Move 5 [0].
Advantages: Reduce Power Investiture (Druidic) to 2 (from 3). Take only 20 points from among Druidic abilities and other advantages (instead of 20 points in Druidic abilities and 20 in other advantages). Take only 10 spells (instead of 20).

Then let's say from 100 to 149 points, the druid can take anything that costs up to 5 points off of the original template, power-ups from DF 3, and, if you have it, power-ups from DF 11. That would be:

Green Thumb [5/level]
Per +1 [5]
FP + 1 [3]
Animal Friend [5/level]
Mind Shield [4/level]
Animal Empathy [5]
Channeling [4]
Damage Resistance 1 [4]
Medium [4]
Plant Empathy [5]
Terrain Adaptation [5]
Resistant to Disease (+3) [3] or +8 [5]
Signature Gear [varies]
Energy Reserve (Druidic) [3/level]
Any spell available at PI 2
Any skill on the 250-point druid template
Cleaving Strike [5]
Any of the many combat perks [1]
Mortal Foe [5]
Slayer Swing at Neck [4/skill]
Slayer Swing at Skull [5/skill]
Slayer Thrust to Vitals [3/ skill]
Ghost Blaster [5/spell]
Any of the many caster perks [1]
(etc., etc....buy DF 11 to see them all. It's good, you won't regret it.)

Then when the druid hits 150 points, they can take any ability costing up to 10. That would allow raising ST or HT, Healer talent, another level of Power Investiture (Druidic), and so on. At 200 points, the druid can take abilities costing up to 15 points, and so on.

This would allow a player to go all-out for spells, PI, increased FP or energy reserve, and caster perks, to become a master of druidic magic, or ignore spells and invest in Animal Friend, Animal Empathy, and Alternate Forms when they become available, to become a great beastmaster (who knows comparatively little magic), or whatever other concentration. By the time two different druids hit 250 points, they will have evolved in quite different directions.

Of course, I just pulled those point values for "levels" and allowed abilities out of thin air. If you don't like them, any others could be substituted. And it may be that you'd want to reserve some cheap abilities for later, or make more expensive ones available earlier. But I think something like this would would give a player the sense of advancing to greater and greater levels of power as they go along, so I think it's what I would use as a starting point.