Talents vs Psionics

[Hanzorigami]

Hi, I am new at GURPS, so I apologize in advance if this is a very basic question. I heard about RPG games and thought my nephew and niece would love to play some, so I dedided to read about RPG and prepare an adventure to play with them. I found out GURPS and liked it from the start. Now I am preparing an adventure, but I have run into some problems.
Basically I want to include Psionic powers in the adventure.
I bought the 2 Basic Set and the Psionic Powers Books. I read the Psionics chapter in the Basic Set, and I thought I understood it, but when I started to read the Psionics Book, things turned confused.
In the Basic Set, all Psionic Powers are associated to Advantages, but in Psionics they are associated to an Advantage and then to certain skills. That's when I got confused. I remembered reading about Talents in the Advantages Section of the Basic Set, so I went back to it and found out that Talents were pretty much handled the same way (an Advantage turned into a Talent and with some skills associated), however I failed to figure out how to use them.
I looked into the Iconic Characters section and found some characters with Talents/Psionic powers (Dai and Louis), however the Psionic powers were just advantages and had no associated skills (as mentioned in the Psionics chapter). Talents, on the other hand (I assume) had the skills associated, but non of them were in the skill list. My guess is that the Talent included all of the skills and that's why they were not written in the skill section (am I right about this?), however when I saw William Headley's Character Sheet, I noticed he has Talent (Healer) 1, and some of the skills associated to the Talent were in the skill list (Diagnose, First Aid, Pharmacy, Physician, and Psychology).
Now I am not sure I understand how Talents work (do all of the associated skills to a talent are acquired automatically, or you have to buy the desired associated skills?) or how Psionics work (Can they either be associated to a single Advantage as in the Psionics chapter of the Basic Set, or can they also work as a Talent, which by the way I am not sure I understand the way they work)?
Any help would be appreciated and once again, I apologize if this is a very basic concept that I just failed to catch.

[RyanW]

The skills associated with psionics in Psionic Powers are an added detail (using rules originally introduced in Powers). Most of the powers would originally require a roll on IQ (or occasionally Will or Per) to use. Using the rules in Psionic Powers you roll against the associated skill for all purposes. The fact that the skill starts out lower is balanced with the fact that you can raise it cheaper than the underlying stat.

There are two types of Talents that function similarly, but not identically: skill talents and power talents.

Skill talents (like Healer) give a bonus to the associated skills (and a few other benefits), but you otherwise have to purchase the skills normally.

Power talents boost the rolls associated with using a power that falls under the appropriate talent. For example, if you have Psi Sense as part of the ESP power, you would get +1 per level of ESP Talent to attribute or skill rolls to use it.

[Anaraxes]

You're missing one link: the book "Powers". Powers has expanded rules, Advantages, Limitations, and Enhancements for building abilities. "Psionic Powers" is a big worked example of how you can build abilities (powers) around a certain theme. The Basic Set has the same concepts, but Powers takes it further, with additional rules, examples, and possibilities. Psionic Powers does the work of choosing among all those options for you for psi.

A Talent is a kind of advantage that gives a bonus to a set of skill rolls. One of the basic assumptions in Psionic Powers is that psi powers should have associated skills. (Some abilities in some game worlds might not need skill rolls, so that's not a given.) So the psi abilities are built on a base Advantage, but also consistently have a Limitation added that requires a skill roll. Power talents add to the effective skill of those psi skills in the same way that, say, Smooth Operator talent adds to many social / "face" skills. The Talent doesn't do anything on its own.

[Hanzorigami]

Thanks for your answer Anaraxes. I was considering getting the Powers supplement, but knowing that Psionic Powers is an application of Powers, has made me change my mind. I may not need it unless I want to create my own powers.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You're missing one link: the book "Powers". Powers has expanded rules, Advantages, Limitations, and Enhancements for building abilities. "Psionic Powers" is a big worked example of how you can build abilities (powers) around a certain theme. The Basic Set has the same concepts, but Powers takes it further, with additional rules, examples, and possibilities. Psionic Powers does the work of choosing among all those options for you for psi.

A Talent is a kind of advantage that gives a bonus to a set of skill rolls. One of the basic assumptions in Psionic Powers is that psi powers should have associated skills. (Some abilities in some game worlds might not need skill rolls, so that's not a given.) So the psi abilities are built on a base Advantage, but also consistently have a Limitation added that requires a skill roll. Power talents add to the effective skill of those psi skills in the same way that, say, Smooth Operator talent adds to many social / "face" skills. The Talent doesn't do anything on its own.

[Hanzorigami]

Thanks for your response, Ryan.

Originally Posted by RyanW

The skills associated with psionics in Psionic Powers are an added detail (using rules originally introduced in Powers).

Unfortunately I do not have the Powers book, so I am not familiar with the original rules... :(

Originally Posted by RyanW

Most of the powers would originally require a roll on IQ (or occasionally Will or Per) to use. Using the rules in Psionic Powers you roll against the associated skill for all purposes. The fact that the skill starts out lower is balanced with the fact that you can raise it cheaper than the underlying stat.

This is precisely part of my problem. I do not quite understand how the skills are associated to the Psionic Abilities. If I get a psionic ability do I automatically get access to all the skills associated to it? Does it work just the same with Talents?

Originally Posted by RyanW

There are two types of Talents that function similarly, but not identically: skill talents and power talents.

Skill talents (like Healer) give a bonus to the associated skills (and a few other benefits), but you otherwise have to purchase the skills normally.

Power talents boost the rolls associated with using a power that falls under the appropriate talent. For example, if you have Psi Sense as part of the ESP power, you would get +1 per level of ESP Talent to attribute or skill rolls to use it.

So, if I get a skill talent is it useless unless I also buy at least one of the skills associated to it? I mean, suppose I get Animal Friend 2. If I do not get any of the associated skills, what is Animal Friend 2 good for?
About power talents, I understand that the Power Talent (ESP Talent, PK Talent, etc.) applies a bonus to all the rolls related to that specific Power abilities, but such abilities are Advantages (Basic Set), not skills.

[Hanzorigami]

Seems like while I was replying I got more answers! :) Thanks to all for your responses, I'll read them and reply accordingly.

[Hai-Etlik]

OK, take a look at the Healing advantage on B59

[quote=B59]To activate your power, concentrate for one second and make an IQ roll.[quote]

If you buy this as an ability of a power like say "Psychic Healing" (B256) and buy levels of the associated talent, you can add the talent to your IQ when making that roll.

Now, if you are using the extra options in Psionic Powers, things get a bit more complex.

Lets say you have the Cure ability from the Psychic Healing power (PP47), this ability is built using the same Healing advantage as before. But since we are using the optional rule about skills, instead of rolling against IQ, you roll against the Cure skill, which defaults to IQ-6 but can be bought up from there. As before, you can add any levels of Psychic Healing talent you may have.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

So, if I get a skill talent is it useless unless I also buy at least one of the skills associated to it? I mean, suppose I get Animal Friend 2. If I do not get any of the associated skills, what is Animal Friend 2 good for?

Each level of a talent is good for 10% off of the hours of study required to learn the associated skills. Animal Friend 2 will let gain a point in Animal Handling skill with 160 hours of supervised study instead of 200.

IIRC, you can get the +2 bonus to some other relevant rolls as well, like an IQ roll to recognize a particular animal is the same one you encountered long ago.

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

Thanks for your response, Ryan.

Unfortunately I do not have the Powers book, so I am not familiar with the original rules... :(

I think most of what's necessary in Powers is recapitulated in Psionic Powers; SJGames' general philosophy is that supplements shouldn't require anything beyond the core books.

This is precisely part of my problem. I do not quite understand how the skills are associated to the Psionic Abilities. If I get a psionic ability do I automatically get access to all the skills associated to it? Does it work just the same with Talents?

No, you buy the skill separately. You don't have to buy it, you can use them at default, but it's hard to be good at using such an ability without it.

So, if I get a skill talent is it useless unless I also buy at least one of the skills associated to it? I mean, suppose I get Animal Friend 2. If I do not get any of the associated skills, what is Animal Friend 2 good for?
About power talents, I understand that the Power Talent (ESP Talent, PK Talent, etc.) applies a bonus to all the rolls related to that specific Power abilities, but such abilities are Advantages (Basic Set), not skills.

You don't have to buy any of the associated skills; the Talent bonus also improves your skill defaults.

[Hanzorigami]

Originally Posted by Diomedes

I think most of what's necessary in Powers is recapitulated in Psionic Powers; SJGames' general philosophy is that supplements shouldn't require anything beyond the core books.

No, you buy the skill separately. You don't have to buy it, you can use them at default, but it's hard to be good at using such an ability without it.


You don't have to buy any of the associated skills; the Talent bonus also improves your skill defaults.

Thanks for your comments Diomedes. I think I got it thanks to all the answers I've got, just one question remains: What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Is it possible? if so, how does it work? I've read that the skills are affected by the level of the ability (like: In level 1 you need to be touching the subject, in level 2 you need to be looking at the subject, in level 3 you can just imagine the subjet, etc.), so is it a requirement to have the abilities?