Counterfeiting and Gold Making in Harry Potter

[TroyGuffey]

I've been reading the WIP "Alexander Harris and the Shadow Council" on the TH_Presents group. The last installment Tenhawk introduced the Magical Secret Service of the USA. One of the major duties of the SS is to prevent magical forgeries, like transfigured money. That was fine and good.

The problem arises when it was declared that Nicholas Flamel would get *ARRESTED* if he went to the USA for magical forgery for being *ABLE* to make gold via the Philosophers Stone!! That the British version isn't too happy with him for the same reason.

Is that at ALL sensible? My magical theory comes from GURPS, in that Flamel uses the PS to transform base metal to gold USING magic, but that the metals themselves are not magical before or after. (Instant duration of the process).

In the big argument that followed, TenHawk stated that the SS seriously considered an Op to KILL him, just because he has the *POTENTIAL* to destabilize the MUSA gold-based economy. (Even comparing it to someone who has a nuke!)

[dcarson]

Sounds like it would do more harm than good, is unethical and stupid. Sounds like most of the decisions that the Ministry makes in the HP books.

[Mylon]

If someone is a threat, even if they are not acting maliciously or only have the ability to cause wanton destruction, it may be wise to neutralize that threat to prevent a massive disaster.

A transition from a non-gold based economy would be a very jarring shift and a lot of people's positions would be in jeopardy. Chaos might break out, particularly among people with a lot of money. So while the primary effects would be localized and minor, the cascading effects would be far reaching. And while most people deal in fiat currency, that money is still given faith on an international bases due to gold reserves. As we approach a post-scarcity economy (where needs certainly aren't scarce but wants still are), what is scarce is still highly valued, and removing that scarcity would destabilize things in a way our economy is not yet ready for.

[The Colonel]

Yeah, I'm not sure JK Rowling put that much thought into the economy of the wizarding world to be honest. There's not even consistency between what can or cannot be created using magic...

[Irish Wolf]

I would like to note, however, that here in the US we generally don't arrest people because of what they might do. Were Mr. Flamel to come here and actually start using the Philosopher's Stone to flood the US market with gold, the MSS would certainly move on him - but arresting him simply for having the ability to do this would be akin to arresting CNC lathe operators because they have the capability of creating printing plates for US currency, or outlawing high-resolution double-sided color photocopiers because some people were able to use them to make fair reproductions of money.

[smurf]

The problem arises when it was declared that Nicholas Flamel would get *ARRESTED* if he went to the USA for magical forgery for being *ABLE* to make gold via the Philosophers Stone!! That the British version isn't too happy with him for the same reason.

I would say he has the equivalent to a gun. A gun owner is not guilty of being able to do an ARV. If they do, then the book gets thrown at them.

May be it is the PS that is illegal and not the mage?

[TroyGuffey]

Originally Posted by Irish Wolf

I would like to note, however, that here in the US we generally don't arrest people because of what they might do. Were Mr. Flamel to come here and actually start using the Philosopher's Stone to flood the US market with gold, the MSS would certainly move on him - but arresting him simply for having the ability to do this would be akin to arresting CNC lathe operators because they have the capability of creating printing plates for US currency, or outlawing high-resolution double-sided color photocopiers because some people were able to use them to make fair reproductions of money.

A point I didn't make in my original post is that Flamel is essentially a gold miner, which is not illegal in any way. Making gold makes a commodity, not fiat money.

[Ragitsu]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Yeah, I'm not sure JK Rowling put that much thought into the economy of the wizarding world to be honest. There's not even consistency between what can or cannot be created using magic...

Which really isn't a problem considering that it's, you know, magic. Now, while some laws will inevitably exist, too much definition will turn it more into science (laws of a certain physic) than the phenomena it generally is regarded as.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

Which really isn't a problem considering that it's, you know, magic. Now, while some laws will inevitably exist, too much definition will turn it more into science (laws of a certain physic) than the phenomena it generally is regarded as.

There is, however, such a thing as congruent reality - any frame of reference is defined by it's boundaries*. We are all fairly certain about what physics can do through simple experience - so in the Potterverse at least one of the main characters grew up in a context where he was intimately familiar with magic and another has made a devout study of it from the outside. On the other side of that the existence of outsiders as main characters provides JKR with any excuse she needs for exposition.
Thus it is reasonable to expect both that the characters as a body will know and understand the limits of magic (as they know them) and that they should be indicated to us.
For example, I seem to recall we are told that magic cannot create food in the final book, but in an earlier one Molly Weasely was seen to pour sauce from her wand. Possibly this was a conjuring together of pre-existing ingredients (that's certainly how I'd retcon it in JKR's position) but I suspect it's more likely to be the result of the basis of the world being worked out as she went along.
Which is fair enough, but it's also valid to note the discontinuity as an issue without accepting 'a wizard did it' as a blanket explanation.



*just look at this clause - to state the idea used three different words for boundary!